Headliner Mindset

BASS KLEPH - The Secret To Producing Better Music

August 05, 2024 • Nik Cherwink

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Bass Kleph is a seasoned vet in the dance music industry. He began exploring electronic music production just as gear and software programs were becoming available. His obsession with creating and "following the fun" lead him to have a successful career as an artist and DJ and play shows all over the world.

Now he teaches, coaches and mentors other music producers through his courses and program at www.basskleph.com. Check out his website for help with your production, as well as his recent collaboration course with The Cult Creatives that helps artists with their branding!

Follow Nik Cherwink here:
https://www.instagram.com/nikcherwink

And visit my site to join the mailing list or book a free coaching call:
https://www.nikcherwink.com

Bass Kleph:

On any decision you've got to do with music production or your music career, I'd be like, well, what's the more fun thing to do here? Like, if you're sitting there having a mental block or a creative block in the studio, ask yourself what would be fun right now. Time and time again, if I've done it or other people I've seen do it, if they try and write something where they're not having fun, where their soul is not really in it, The art doesn't turn out very good.

Nik:

What's up, everybody? Welcome to the headliner mindset podcast Today's guest is an og music producer who has been pushing buttons and making beats for many many years He had a long and successful career as a touring artist and DJ playing shows all over the world. And now he runs his own school where he teaches producers how to speed up their process and get tracks done. This is Bass Clef. My man, welcome to the show, happy to have you here. Long time, no see.

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, thanks man. Great to be here. Has been a long time. Good to see you as well.

Nik:

Yeah, I think, uh, the last time we saw each other, I believe I brought you in for, to be a guest speaker and do a Q& A at Icon Collective back when I was teaching there many, many years ago.

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I remember that. That was fun. We're talking a lot about, um, performing on machina like finger drumming and stuff and music production stuff as well too.

Nik:

Yeah, yeah. And you've always been doing some really Cool stuff, as an artist, as a DJ, as a producer. And now also like, I'm excited to really dig into this conversation because like, you're also a coach, like you're, you're, you're coaching, you're teaching, you know, and that's, that's my background. That's where I come from, you know, teaching music business at icon, teaching art of flow, and now doing this, I don't know, life coaching thing that I'm doing, this artist coaching thing that I'm doing. So excited to. To share our, uh, our parallel journeys around that.

Bass Kleph:

For sure. That sounds great, man.

Nik:

Well, where I, where I would love to start, I was thinking about this before, before, we started, what was the moment that you first knew you wanted to get into production and making music? Like, can you remember a moment where you're like, I want to do that?

Bass Kleph:

Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. Absolutely. So, um, before I did electronic music production, uh, I'd spent a lot of time being a drummer. And it was a pivot from that. Well, a crossover in a way. I started out playing drums when I was eight, I later got into one, like an out of school band, like my own rock band, well a couple, but one of them got popular when I was 15. It became kind of my musical life at that point. It was all rock and roll, like punk rock and stuff. We got signed to a major label in Australia, fortunately. We were really lucky with that. Yeah, and we did an album for them, for Festival Records. We recorded in the same studio as ACDC.

Nik:

Hell yeah.

Bass Kleph:

Maybe that would be, that's touching on part of it. Seeing the whole recording process and, um, part of that got me interested in it for sure, you know, like, uh, the sonics of it. But yeah, after about an album or so, uh, I mean the band eventually broke up later on, um, but, uh, halfway through it, I heard, The Prodigy, and I heard Squarepusher. Somebody put them on in a car when we were driving around. And I was like, what is this? Because, yeah, just recently, we'd recorded our album at this fancy studio at Alberts in North Sydney, Australia. The first day is awesome as a drummer, right? Cause all about you. They go in and mic up your kit and they spend all this time making sure everything sounds great. They move everything around and you know, you're just tracking the drums. The whole band plays, but only record the drums. And you come back into the control room and you have a listen and your drums sound amazing. It's so big and loud and awesome. And you stoked for then the next day. They do the bass track and your drums get a little quieter. Next day they do the guitar tracks, your drums get a little quieter. And then the singer comes in and by the time it's done, it's like, your drums is so far in the distance. And um, so I hear Squarepusher and I hear Chemical Brothers and the Prodigy all around this time. And I'm like, their drums are up front. They're so loud. That is my instrument. I need to find out about this. Show me everything about this.

Nik:

So sick, dude. Yeah. Prodigy is, I can see how that made that connection for you because they're so punk also. They're so like the energy of rock and roll, but in electronic music. I remember seeing them live and I was like, Oh, like, like this is a band and this is something I'm actually really excited about. And I, and I'm preaching it. I'm hoping for it. I literally want to start one myself, but like, like live electronic music bands, I think are the future like pendulum. Like I'm obsessed with

Bass Kleph:

Oh, I love pendulum, Aren't they great.

Nik:

you know, where it's like, yo, you're not just DJ, right. You got like four or five dudes up there all doing things, live drums and shit singing. Like that's, that's my shit, man. So I, I, I get that connection. So what did you do from there? Cause, cause, what, what year was this that you were

Bass Kleph:

this, this would have,

Nik:

this wasn't 2024 where you can download a fuckin Ableton and Splice and make a song in 45 seconds, right?

Bass Kleph:

I'm, I'm going to give away my age here, but it would have been like 1997 or something. Yeah. It was a while ago.

Nik:

different time.

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, exactly. And, um, definitely much harder to find information, especially being in small suburbs of north of Sydney and hearing this music, like, where do I even start? There was nothing like really online about it that I knew of. There was no new YouTube or anything. There was no courses, nothing like this. Hardly knew anybody that even did anything like that. I think I started from, I went into music stores and just looked at what equipment they had and tried to play with it if I could, or, uh, ask if I could read the manuals and then eventually started figuring out. What's the first thing I started? First thing I started writing it with is, the only thing I could afford at the time, was a, there's a PlayStation game called Music, and that was, I don't know, maybe 50 bucks, and from there, you could sequence electronic music on your PlayStation, uh, only using built in sounds, you couldn't put your own sounds in there. You could kind of synthesize them, but not really. Oh my God. I would be up to like three in the morning, every night, just obsessed with that thing, just writing tracks nonstop.

Nik:

So you're telling me that you started producing on PlayStation. Yeah.

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, I did. I forgot that even happened. And until you asked me, I forgot about that. And, but I was obsessing at the time thinking I would really love to have a real. electronic instruments or something. Cause I think there were some computer programs, but they were pretty average. Maybe I had Cakewalk too and I messed around with that a little bit, but you could actually do a lot on this PlayStation thing. You have many tracks and stuff. It's pretty good. I think the first bit of hardware I got like that was the Roland MC 303 groove box back in the day. I think I saved up a whole bunch, uh, from some kind of, Part time job and got a secondhand one and got stuck in and just obsessed, you know, and yeah again You'd read the manuals backwards and that's how I would learn. That's how I do sound design That's how synthesizers work, because that was the only information I was just eating it up like a sponge because it was it was like gold

Nik:

And then when did you start actually putting out tracks and, building an artist project for yourself?

Bass Kleph:

I was writing them in tandem while I was in the band and I was really enjoying it. Actually, I'd even bring my groove box with the drums and some, we did a few songs where I'd have like programming something and playing along with it and flicking back and forwards. It was starting to get a bit more. Electronic infused. Um, and I love that. And I remember a rehearsal looking over at the machine one time being like, I'd love to just do that. You know, I still love the drums. It's great. I mean, I played drums for like 12 years, but, um, I suppose there was a point when the band broke up and I was left with the decision of, um, Okay, do I find another band? Or do I run with this electronic stuff? And, uh, we had a really good dynamic in the band. We never fought. Everybody was a good player. We got along really well. It was very professional. I'd seen how other bands, their dynamics were. And it wasn't, I was in a good lucky spot. I'm like, if I go and try and find other bands, it's going to be so tough. And they're going to, I'm going to be so disappointed. It's going to be difficult and I love this electronic stuff. I want to give it a try. So I, I went and sold all my drums. I sold my cymbals, my cases, all my touring equipment. Cause we used to play shows all around Australia everywhere. so that was a big, like, All or nothing. Like I am committed to this. I love this that much. And I use that to buy more studio equipment. Like I think I got, um, yeah, some more, it's still all hardware at that point. I hadn't been using a computer and I wrapped up an EP. I finished a bunch of songs and to get it onto something that everyone could play the, you could just start to get CD burners at this point. And, uh, they're way too expensive. So I rented one from like an audio shop, the kind of one where you, I recorded my jam onto that tape, live. I'd have to just hit record and perform the song. And, uh, then I'd plug it in and real time recorded onto the, um, the CD burner. It doesn't burn at double speed or anything or multiple speed. And I'd sit for each demo that I wanted to hand out to people. I had to sit there and in real time. You know, I handed those out to DJs in town in Sydney. I took them to clubs that I liked that I'd been checking out and I'd give them, Hey, this is my demo, man. And, some people would put it on straight away, which is really cool. And some people would call me later and be like, Hey man, this is actually pretty good. And some of them linked me up with a local, um, label in Sydney, uh, called Floating Point at the time. And they loved it. They wanted to sign it and sign me. And, we did a whole contract and all that kind of stuff. And they had an incredible studio. We ended up getting the first record out in, I think, 2003.

Nik:

Wow. Wow. I feel like. Making that switch from drums to electronic music, electronic gear and producing, it was all such new cutting edge technology. Drums and guitar been around for, for a minute, you know, they're probably pretty established, you know, instruments, but I could see how there was probably just like the sense of like excitement and discovery of like, Whoa, this is all very, very new. It wasn't mainstream. It wasn't popular yet. It wasn't really even accessible that much yet.

Bass Kleph:

Oh, totally. No, it was just something I was obsessed with. Most of my friends, they were still more into the kind of the rock stuff. Some people were into DJing a little bit, but the live electronic stuff was pretty rare. I mean, sure, it's probably bigger, you know, in other countries and other cities and stuff, but it was pretty new for us and for me. So yeah, that was my new punk rock for me.

Nik:

like that you were saying, you know, you were, you were obsessed with it. I want you to take me back into, the mindset and even the feeling because back then there wasn't the big glamorous DJ lifestyle, right?

Bass Kleph:

not at all. No.

Nik:

people weren't doing it because like, oh shit, I can make a fuck ton of money and travel the world and like get hella girls doing this. Like that, that sort of ego part of it really wasn't there yet. So what was

Bass Kleph:

Not at all.

Nik:

yeah, what was really driving you then? Yeah.

Bass Kleph:

I was playing drums or any other instrument or just listening to music, always been obsessed with it. And the fact that I could just make my own, I suppose, maybe it's because I could like envision something and have an idea in my head and then like create it, bring it into, a tangible space in a way that you could listen back to it and be like, wow, I made that. And then if there's something I didn't like about her, it wasn't quite right. I could, I could go and change it. I could shape it to be what I wanted it to be. And if there was something, a vibe or a song I wanted to hear that didn't exist, I could try and make it, you know, and it's just so fun. It's the same reason I still love doing it. It's just so fun.

Nik:

Yeah, and I really want to highlight that point because You know, I work with so many people That come to me that have these massive blocks around making music or You know chasing their artist dream because they're putting so much fucking pressure on themselves to

Bass Kleph:

Yeah.

Nik:

like I have to make this work, like, I've got to go to full time, like, this is my, my career, I want to get signed to this label, or I want these goals so bad, and then it's like, it's completely cock blocking the creative process. It's like, you're not doing it because it's fun. And it's not fun. Like, I can't tell you how many people I run into where I'm like, yo, you're not having any fucking fun doing this. So something's off and I think it comes back to the why to the purpose like are you obsessed with it? Are you having fun in the process of it? Are you getting fulfillment out of like putting those little pieces together and getting things to click manifesting this? Sound in into reality, you know, it does that part of it excite you because I I just feel like A lot of people are almost having to do that part to try to get to where it is that they're trying to go and they're not actually in love and obsessed with the process. I think it's really important that you fucking love what you're doing.

Bass Kleph:

I agree. Yeah. And, um, I'd even go as far as saying, um, it should be the first thing. My recommendation should be the first thing, uh, in mind. Uh, I would even say, like, use fun as your compass. On any decision you've got to do with music production or your music career, I'd be like, well, what's the more fun thing to do here? Like, if you're sitting there having a mental block or a creative block in the studio, ask yourself what would be fun right now. Maybe it's just, you know, you've got a new sample pack you want to look through. Maybe there's a new synth you want to play with but you feel like you're meant to be writing a hit today. No, just do whatever is fun. Good stuff will follow because you're following what's fun. And good music will follow. I think time and time again, if I've done it or other people I've seen do it, if they try and write something where they're not having fun, where their soul is not really in it, The art doesn't turn out very good. It feels forced and contrived, and even a non producer, a regular listener, will listen to the song and be like, Yeah, it's okay. But those ones where you actually love it, you're actually really enjoying yourself, and you're just doing it for you, they tend to be the best songs. They also tend to get finished the fastest, which is crazy. Like, all my biggest hits I've ever had, and my peers say the same, their biggest hits, too, were done in the shortest space of time. They were usually done in one day or half a day or something, and they were done without any pressure, just thinking, oh, this would be fun, or I'll just make this for me, and it ends up blowing up, and you never expected it.

Nik:

Yeah, yeah, and I definitely want to dig back into this, the, the, the creative process. Because I know you have a lot to share. But before we get there, I would love to hear about how you made it from Australia to the States and, you know, what the rest of your artist career looked like. Because, yeah, when we met, you were living in LA at the time, touring, playing shows. So, obviously, buying that gear worked out for you. You figured something out, pressing all those buttons. So when did you come out to the States and what happened with the rest of your artist trajectory there?

Bass Kleph:

I think I did my first show in America in I think it was a New Year's show with Will Bailey, I think. Played somewhere in San Fran. But I'd done a whole bunch of shows in Canada before that. And I suppose to backtrack how that came about, my first international shows I organized myself. Through contacts from other producers like I'd signed some tracks to some labels in the UK and made some friends with people They're done some remixes and things and it was just that I want to go and play other shows You know, I was playing a lot of shows in Australia. I had a residency and Things were going great and I'd always meet the headline DJs and talk to them and they should but you should come over and play Man, you know, you've you've got what it takes you're doing all the right things So I just worked with those contacts of, yeah, I think a great way to network is like this where you do it naturally through the music. You're not trying to just network. You just make music with people and you pretty much always end up becoming friends and then doors start opening. Uh, so yeah, organized that tour in UK by myself. Uh, I went with a friend of mine, Nick Taya. We went over there and did a bunch of shows together, a couple of spots in Europe too, I think. That got the attention of some, um, And not long after that, uh, there was a UK agency that wanted to sign me. I forget the name now. And I think maybe I picked up another one after that. I can't remember. I already had an agent in Australia doing my bookings. Yeah, someone from Canada started bringing me over for some shows there because that was easier, the work visa is a lot harder in America. And then the American one happened because I signed with Spin. I was going to a music conference every year called ADE, the Amsterdam Dance Event. Super helpful, well back in the day it was anyway, probably still pretty helpful. I met with the guys from spin there one year and that we're talking about, they were interested in signing me and we ended up all liking everything that was talked about, went for it. And I really needed them to get me the American visa. You kind of need a sponsor, but you also got to prove a whole bunch of stuff cause the, the, the category they put you in on is an extraordinary alien and to get, to get that you have to be, um, the top of your game from whatever country you're from. So you have to prove, you know, like you've had. National awards and all these kinds of things and status of something. I don't know, chart success and certain shows and whatnot. And then, yeah, then they approve it. And then I came over and started playing a bunch of shows and I was like, this is great. I really love playing shows in America. I love the crowd, love the vibe. Um, and I was going like maybe four times a year, each time two weeks a trip. And I started going, why am I living in Australia and loving all these shows? I'm playing over there. Why don't I flip it? I'll just go, I'll go and live in LA and I can come back and play in Australia, do it the other way around.

Nik:

It sounds like a lot of this was kind of organic for you.

Bass Kleph:

Absolutely.

Nik:

it doesn't sound like it was very forced or that you, yeah, you were, you were forcing things to happen or pushing them to happen.

Bass Kleph:

No, not at all. I Mean, there was, when I was only in Australia, there was that desire to play in other countries because I'd heard about all these amazing clubs and that's where so many of my favorite producers came from, but definitely not forced. No.

Nik:

I think that's really important, you know, and interesting kind of back to what we were saying even about the songs Where if you're you're trying to you're trying to make a hit like I'm gonna I'm gonna get in the studio And I'm gonna make a hit. I'm gonna force this hit to come out. It's never gonna happen Right, and and there's something about that as well with just I don't know our goals and life in general there on the one hand I you know, this is sort of a You know, I always talk about like masculine energy versus feminine energy, you know, your masculine energy, that's that driving force and it's good to have that. But there's also sort of this feminine surrender energy of like, well, also just let things happen and kind of go with the flow and and trust that things kind of work out right. So, obviously you were, working and you were doing it, but you were just kind of chasing the fun, like you said, And you know,

Bass Kleph:

And loving the music and loving the process. I was just having so much fun doing it. And I mean, even if it didn't take me to other countries or didn't get me those shows, I would still be doing it. I love it.

Nik:

Yeah, yeah, and just I'm thinking out loud right now. Just me articulating my own sort of inner frameworks that are always clicking and popping all the time. But I'm thinking about how the industry is very different now, right? It is, Well, I'll just say oversaturated. There's are a lot more people doing it. There's a lot more technology. There's just the industry is totally different, right? Like the industry has been formed. The industry was still very new and still coming up. And there was like kind of a lot of space, you know, and now, The industry is so much more established and so on the surface, it might look like we have to force things to happen a little bit more. Maybe it can be a bit more strategic of like, okay, cool. I got a release on these labels. I got to get this manager. I got to get this agent like there is a bit of a formula to it, but I still think that underneath that the universal law and principle of Following your heart chasing the fun loving the process like just being a fucking cool good person, you know, like following the energy Regardless of where the industry is at and really of what you're doing in life, I think that's still going to apply. Right. And I'm saying this because I, even myself as a coach, like I am oftentimes helping people navigate the business side of it. I've like, okay, well, cool. Here's how the business works. And this is sort of what, you know, you should be working on and what you need to do. But also it's like underneath that the driving force, your energy still needs to be in a good place. The driving force still needs to be like. I'm doing this because I love this and I'm being driven. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm following the fun, I'm following my heart. Like that's just a part of being human. That's, I think, always gonna be there regardless of the industry and where it's at.

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, I agree. I think it's the, probably the best reason to do it, really. Just cause you, you'll love doing it and, uh, it's gonna be fun the whole time and it helps, yeah, it helps those decisions and helps sort of guide your path. Yeah, you kind of end up doing things for the right reasons, in a way. Like, I didn't, I wasn't relying on a certain external outcome to keep going, I was relentless cause I just loved it. I'm like That was my drive to, to get up and write the next song or to stay up late, finishing that song or to learn something new about production or mixed down or whatnot, just cause I loved it. Not because I was like, well, it's cause I'm going to get this signing or I'm going to play this to, uh, those things are fun. When they happened, I was stoked. Sure. I appreciated them, but, um, I wasn't relying on that. So I was just having a great time the whole time.

Nik:

What would you say to a young artist that's pursuing this path that is really stressed about it and putting a lot of pressure on themselves?

Bass Kleph:

Oh, to definitely take a step back and have a look at how they're doing everything. Cause it shouldn't be stressful. It should be fun and it should actually be easy too. There's way too many things I see, especially through the, my music school that I run, see so many students over complicating things and it's not their fault. There's just so much misinformation out there, especially on YouTube. Um, I mean, it's not all bad, but there's a lot of bad stuff. And there's this belief I noticed that people come to me, they'll have this belief that music production has to be complex. Cause you don't know any different. And, and in a way we all love music so much, right? It's such a big part of our lives. If you're a music producer, you have a special connection to music. So when you think about your favorite songs and your favorite producers that made those songs, this song is so incredible. You put it on a pedestal, like it must've been so complex to make. But often what you find out when you meet some of your heroes and you talk to them and you find out about something that actually it was really easy. It was just them being in the moment, having fun, not caring what anybody thought. And this is so important to being true to yourself. And this is easier said than done, but just doing what you love and not caring about what other people tell you to do or what, what is popular in your town or what you think will make money. Just do what you love and you'll make the best art. I think If you focus on these kind of things, you can't help but kind of get onto the right track. And you want to be enjoying it because, careful what you wish for, man. What if you're not enjoying it and you become successful? Then you're going to be expected to keep not enjoying it, so.

Nik:

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I'm getting artists that are coming to me now that are full time touring artists that have built a really great business for themselves and they just announced the fucking headlining tour and they're like, I'm in this position where now, I have to keep making music for the machine that I've created, and I'm not really inspired to I'm losing the passion for what I used to make and my heart is going in a different direction, but I have all these expectations of what I'm supposed to be making now. So there's this really interesting point in people's career that I'm seeing happen often as well. It's kind of that higher level, but exactly what you're talking about. And this is the thing. I'm just bringing them right back to exactly what you said, and this is the foundation of the Art of Flow class that I used to teach at Icon Collective. Just the basic idea to be in the moment, fuck what anybody else thinks, or any sort of expectations, come in with no expectations, and just make whatever feels good in that moment. And usually some cool shit's gonna come out. Sometimes it might be garbage and that's okay. Be unattached to it. But when you do tap into that, that magical, you know, plugging into the electrical outlet of the universe and download the creative energy, it's like boom, that's where you create your best stuff. And those are usually where, where hits come from, but it requires. Letting go of expectations or I'm going to make something to get onto this label or I'm going to make something, you know, for this. It's like, no, just do what feels cool and what's fun. You know, that's the, it's, it's almost so simple. Yeah.

Bass Kleph:

why it's not so intuitive because it seems too simple. And like I'm saying about with people assuming songs have to be complex, but you're right. There's a, there's, there is a kind of a flow feeling and I've definitely experienced this many times where, um, yeah, you just kind of let go and. It's almost like, uh, you make, I don't know, one move, like you write some part or something and then you'll accidentally find some sample and be like, Oh, that's good. Yeah. Oh, that works. Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, it's done. whereas I see sometimes, uh, a newer producer. that might not be as experienced with this, and every single decision that comes up in their process, they think about it just way too much. They're like, what about, oh, should we try ten more hi hats first, or does it need some phalange or, you know, like, just, just roll with it, just, you know, just go, just, don't overthink it, basically, just, if it feels good, it's good, if it sounds good, it's good. There's, again, there's so much, um, misinformation on the sonic part of this, too, where people are freaking out about sounds they can't even hear. All these people just doing terrible things with EQ, cutting all the low end out of their sounds, because they see it moving on the analyzer. And I'll ask them, can you hear it? Like, turn your EQ on and off. Can you hear that it made a difference? It kind of sounds the same. You might think, well, what's the problem with that? Like, if we didn't change it? I'm not hurting anything, but, uh, the problem is you're getting distracted from the moves that matter. You're, you're focusing on busy work instead of actually learning how to EQ and actually how to write music and stuff.

Nik:

And it's not every time, but I think a lot of the times the reason people get stuck is because they're overthinking is they're trying to make what's the right decision. What's the best decision. And that's attached to this song needing to be successful in some way or needing to be a hit in some way. Right? Like I need to make sure that this song is perfect and I make all the right decisions. And this is going to be the song that I put out that gets signed and changes my life. Like on an unconscious level, that's the thing that's happening. Right. So that's just an important piece to look at when you shift out of that and just like, Hey, I'm just, I'm making shit for fun and let's, you know, let's just make whatever wants to come out. It's a very different, very different approach

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, it's, it's like you say, it's, it's perfectionism. Yeah.

Nik:

Yeah. Yeah. And so now we're getting into some production stuff and just to, just to backtrack a little bit, tell me about your, first off, what inspired you in the first place to start teaching and coaching production? When did, when did this start?

Bass Kleph:

Well, I mean, I, I kind of been helping people with production off and on, like, not like, seriously for a long time. One of my friends was telling me, reminding me of this the other day, when it might've been one of the earliest examples, I was teaching him production when I was 18 and I totally even forgot about it. That's how we became friends. He wanted to learn how to write drum and bass. I'm like, yeah, I can show you how to write drum and bass, you know, and started teaching himself just as a friend. And we ended up DJing together, producing together and doing all sorts of stuff later. And often on this bit throughout the years, uh, especially with my first record label with vacation records, I was always coaching my people. I was signing off and wanting to bring on new talent and helping them out with the skills I'd learned, to help their tracks be. the best they could be, you know, their mix downs and things, songwriting, all sorts of stuff. But I guess this, uh, when the school came about in 2016, I'd taken some time off for the reason we just mentioned before. I'd gone too far in the wrong direction with my music. And I was like, I'm not really vibing what I'm, uh, I'm writing these days and I'm not enjoying the process. I want to take some time off and have a think about what I'm doing because this used to be fun, you know, and this, this is not right. And there was just, you know, Too many carrots being dangled in front of me, especially in America with like, they seem like small things, you know, and you, people could easily listen to this story and be like, I would never make that mistake. But trust me when you're there and you're, you're agents like, Oh, have you just made this slight tweak to your song? We might be able to get you, uh, uh, and this booking, or if you do this, we can get you on this radio station. If you do this little change, all these little changes start adding up.

Nik:

yeah all these external voices

Bass Kleph:

yeah, there's input from your team, from all the, all the different people and that, yeah, they don't seem like. Terrible changes at the time, just small things, but they add up. And after a while you look back and you're like, This doesn't really sound like me anymore, you know, like, what am I doing here, you know? Still playing really big shows and having a good time at the shows, so I'm like, mmm. I used to have this way I would, describe it to myself about how my music should feel. Like, my music should feel like if I'm driving down the street, I want to have the windows of my car rolled down, with my music cranked, and I should be stoked about it. I should be like, this is my shit, you know? And I wouldn't, I didn't feel like that. There was other music I was listening to, which I thought was cooler. And I'm like, why am I not writing this other stuff, you know? So I took some time off to have a think about it. You know, fortunately I could, which is great. And I had a bit more time to reply to my followers, which is really interesting because when you're busy producing and touring all the time, you always get loads of messages about, oh, do you want to do a collab? Can you check out my track? Uh, questions about this and that. And you just honestly don't have time to reply to them. But now I did. So I was just sitting there just writing back to people and someone sent a track and I'm like, Oh, okay, I'll check it out. Have a listen. I'll give them some feedback and they're like, Wow, that, that helps so much. Thanks so much, man. I'm like, well, I'm glad to help, you know, and started doing a few more here and there too. And, um, just really enjoyed the fulfilling feeling of helping other people like that. And it was popping up more and more. I was like, you know what, I should try something. What if I did some actual, like focused help for people? So I sent out a message to my email list and stuff and said, all right, I'm going to try something. I don't know if I'll ever do this again, but for one month, I'll take on a handful of mentor students. And I'll help you guys out. We'll do one lesson a week for four weeks. With all sorts of stuff, I don't know, with whatever you need help with, with your music and music production. And, uh, it had just sold out in like five minutes. I was like, whoa. This is what you guys really want. Damn, like, you know. Actually, someone even said, because I was talking to people before and said, um, what do you guys actually want? You know, like what out there, like what kind of music, what kind of things? And someone said, Oh, you know, we love your music. We love your tracks. It's awesome. But more than anything, we want to be you. Oh, I can teach you how to do that. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I took some students on and, uh, it was a blast, man. It was awesome. Super fun. Super fulfilling.

Nik:

Isn't it so fun dude? It's the best. Like, it feels so fucking good. If anyone out there, here's the thing, if anyone out there, because I actually had a friend, an artist friend hit me up recently, who, Had someone ask, about helping them mentor. And sometimes there's some hesitation. It could either be maybe imposter syndrome. Who am I to help somebody? Or maybe like, this is not aligned with my brand or what are people going to think of me? Yo. Go fucking help. Go help people go serve, go coach, go teach. You don't even have to charge for it, but like it is so it's so fulfilling and there's, it's cause you're just, you know, it's not about you, it's about them. And that's what we all need a little bit more of. So I just, just want to hammer that home. If you're on the edge, if people are asking you and they're coming to you, that was what happened with me at, when I was working at icon, I had students coming up to me and they're like, Hey, we want you to be my, someone asked me, can I, can I be their mentor for the quarter? And I'm like, I don't, teach production. I don't know shit about production. I can't be your mentor. They're like, no, I want you to mentor me on the life stuff. And I was kind of like, Oh damn. All right. The universe is like, calling me to do this. And so if, if let this be your sign, this is what I'm saying. If you're listening now, if you have people asking, are you thinking about it? The fulfillment is life changing. So I'm glad that you've gotten to tap into

Bass Kleph:

I completely agree, man. And, um, you know, it also gave me a side to express myself in my love for production so much and for songwriting. Because, in a way, I've had moments when I was younger and touring and stuff and thinking, put so much work into this and there's so many things I've learned. I don't actually need all the knowledge I have. to be a producer and stuff. I've kind of overloaded myself. And then I'd sometimes see people, um DJing and, uh, and producing and stuff too. And this stuff is okay, you know, but, um, to the general public, we're all the same. Right. And I feel like deep down, I feel like I feel like I've got something more to offer, but I don't know how to share it. I don't know how to like, And this gives me an opportunity to kind of geek out on all that stuff. When people come to me and they're like, Why doesn't my song sound like my hero's track? I'm like, Oh, let me show you. Let's go. It's this. And you're going to love it. And, that's so fun for me doing that. It's so fun seeing them succeed. And there's full on, there's heavy moments too, which are really powerful. When people come to me and they're like, Uh, and I said, what, show me your music, you know, and how long you've been producing for? And they'll say like, oh, 15 years. I'm like, wow, it's a long time. How many tracks have you had signed? And they'll be like, nothing. I'm like, damn, man, that's brutal. Like. We're going to help you out because I really need help like I told my wife if I can't get something happening by the end of the year I'm just going to have to quit and accept that this is not for me, and I love this But I just takes up all my time I spend all my money on plugins and software and hardware, and it's just not going anywhere, and I'm losing my mind So sad and frustrated and it's my man that dude. I've got you I can help you in to fix this. We turn it all around, and it's usually just a whole bunch of misinformation that needs to be corrected. And they'll get their tracks finished. They'll get their tracks signed. Their stuff starts sounding as good as their heroes, and they start getting the feedback they want from big producers that are playing their tracks. And they're just blown away. They're pretty much coming to tears. And like, Oh my God, I didn't think this was ever possible.

Nik:

Yeah,

Bass Kleph:

That's amazing, man.

Nik:

that's what it's all about right there. That's what it's all about. I love that man. You know, it's cool. So I For me I have sort of a basic Framework that came to me. It was really after doing starting the podcast where I started to realize There's basically five main areas that You need to really focus on and master to become, you know, like a successful full time touring artist and You know first really is the mindset and that's what I like focusing on I'm like, oh if your if your mindset isn't in the right place in the first place if you don't believe in yourself and you don't Have Good habits and you're not all in, you know, all these mental blocks. Like you're stuck at ground zero if you don't fix those mental blocks, but then I guess the second step really, you gotta have good music, right? Cause. The better your music is, the easier everything else is.

Bass Kleph:

Oh, yeah.

Nik:

You can have like, also, you kind of can have mediocre music, but also the other areas are to have a really good brand, be really good at marketing, and be really good at networking. And, this is your lane is like, all right, get that music dialed in. Right. Cause if that's not, like I said, like the other, it makes the other parts a lot harder. Like, yeah, you gotta get your, you know, put your tracks out and do your marketing and build a brand and all of that. But the foundation of it needs to be that you've got good music.

Bass Kleph:

Totally. Yeah. And you're right. All those things are important. They are essential. All of them. Yeah, we, we just tend to focus mostly at our school at basscliff. com at, um, mostly on the music. But we do help people out a little bit with, um, yeah, mindset stuff too. So I can totally relate with all those topics you're saying. And, um, we,

Nik:

the mindset touches all the other categories that doesn't ever go away, right? There's your mindset around music, your mindset around branding, your mindset around networking also. Like, you're scared to go out and talk to people and shake some hands and send some DMs. Like, alright, that's going to stop you also. So, it shows up everywhere.

Bass Kleph:

Totally. And then it absolutely puts a ceiling on how far you can go. Like there's people I've seen that have great music, but that last step for them is the getting that mindset right to actually take it to the next level. Some people, they can't even get started because of the mindset too though, because they keep getting stifled. So yeah, it's super important.

Nik:

Yeah. So, What's the school called?

Bass Kleph:

Baseclef. com just like my old artist name, B A S S K L E P H. com.

Nik:

okay. So, what is the program? How do you structure things over there? Tell me a little bit. If I was a new student, let's say, I actually want to finally start learning how to produce. Stu, I'm ready. I'm ready to dive in. Hook me up. What does this look like?

Bass Kleph:

So we focus on two main things. Uh, teaching people how to finish great songs fast and getting a pro sound. Cause they're the two main things I've just found people keep struggling with that are just massively important on the music side of it. Like, you gotta write good music. But you also kind of got to write it fast. And there's too many people just writing loops and not getting them finished. And they're getting stifled somewhere along the way. Like, really the whole process from when you lay down that first kick drum, up until you sign the record contract, should be a smooth straight line, right? But then there's so many times when halfway through it slows down, or even completely stops. This doesn't need to happen. We fix this kind of thing. We find these roadblocks and be like, Okay, this is just because. This part, no one's explained this part of the process to you, or they showed you the wrong way. And we can show you the right way, where you can just fly straight through, being as creative as possible, with a big smile on your face, and be left with enough energy to do it over and over again, and enjoy it. Cause also finishing songs, makes you a better producer as well too. Each time you take something all the way across the line, you learn lessons about how you're going to start the song again afterwards. And there's loads of people out there going, yeah, I'm a good producer. I got this, but they're not finishing tracks. So they keep making mistakes at the start because they haven't seen how those mistakes will impact them at the end in the mix down or when they send it to the record label. You know, you gotta, you gotta go through the whole thing. It's kind of like, Calling yourself a baker, but you never switch the oven on. It's like, you just, you just needing dough, man. Like you gotta, you gotta do the whole process. Take those lessons, stick them back in over and over, rinse and repeat. And, uh, then stuff starts getting really good. Um, so yeah, we show how to make that process easy and fun. Cause honestly it absolutely can be people just making things way too complicated. If your production feels complicated, you probably doing it wrong. And it's not your fault. There's just way too much misinformation out there.

Nik:

What are some of the areas and sticking points that you see people really struggling with in the process? What are some of the common ones?

Bass Kleph:

Overall, mostly complexity, like too many parts, physically too many notes, layering things too much, putting things in too many groups, too many, just too many, too many, too many of everything. Strip it all back, and I'll probably still tell you it's not simple enough. But yeah, like I'm saying, like, it's, there's all this stuff that people think is normal, like, so many people have been told that they have to layer a sub bass under their bass. And for, like, 95 percent of people's songs, they don't. Things that just blow my mind, but YouTube's a bit of an echo chamber. Like, somebody will Give one piece of advice, and there's a whole bunch of people on there that have some experience, but maybe not enough. So they just repeat back the same advice, and it's all just bouncing around over and over again, and everyone just takes it as gospel. And I'm sitting there just facepalming the whole time, going, Oh my god, where did you guys come up with this stuff? Like,

Nik:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm, I'm starting to hear some good. Guiding points here. The first one that we talked about earlier was follow the fun. I love that. That's always going to be my favorite one. That's at the top of the list. Also less is more. You're probably over complicating things. What would be another main bullet point For people?

Bass Kleph:

the whole theme of it comes back to complexity. Um, people, even whether they're maybe just using too many plugins and over processing things, or whether they're making their melodies too complex and too busy. I think that there is a common thing too where you can easily get caught up when you're writing a song. That you're trying to make each individual part as amazing as possible. Like, this is the best bass line ever. This is the best lead ever. It's so complex and tricky and original. Problem is, when you put complex on complex on complex on complex, it just sounds like a mess. Uh, music, music is meant to be, um, Like, coming from my band days, there's parts that are in front, and there's parts that are there to support. You're taking turns, like not everyone is the hero, it's a team, it's a team that works together. So it's important to keep that in mind, it's easy to get sucked into just the one part you're working on, but you're the conductor, man, you're the designer of this whole sonic world. So you need to identify with your skills and knowledge, okay, that's the thing I want the listener to focus on now. These other guys are here to support and make that guy look good. And when we get to this moment, I'm going to switch the attention. I'm going to do it in that way. Because you can't ask the listener to do that. You can't say, Oh, there's 50 parts. They can hear them all at once. It's like, no, no, no. You have to make the decision for them. You're the producer. You guide their ears. You guide, I want you to pay attention to this and then that and then that. And we can absolutely do that with music choices and sonic choices.

Nik:

I feel like you must have really learned that being a drummer. I grew up playing the drums also, and I was in a metal band where all I wanted to do was fills every single measure, you know, just like how crazy can I make this? And it's like, you know, sometimes you actually just need to keep the fucking beat and chill out and

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, man.

Nik:

more simple.

Bass Kleph:

Like look, look at ACDC. Super simple drums and it sounds amazing.

Nik:

we reconnected recently, um, because you also partnered with my brother, Chris White, Chris Alba from the Colt Creatives. And you guys, partnered on putting out a branding course, which is super cool because, you know, we've talked about, you know, pretty much all of these five pillars from mindset to branding. Making good music and then once that music is made We'll also we got to put that music in like some kind of a package because as we do know Becoming successful as an artist now, these days is about more than just the music, right? It is about building a following, building an audience. And why are people going to follow you? Right? That that's where your, your branding comes in. Marketing could be a year long course itself. How do you actually get your stuff out there? And what are all the tricks and tips for that? You did also earlier talk about networking, just about how you were, you know, meeting people at different labels and, and playing shows and other, you know, countries collaborating with people. Right? Like, there's some networking in there also. We've hit almost all of these categories. Tell me about this course that you guys put out together with, with Chris.

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, for sure. It was super fun to do. Chris is a long time friend and um, he's done some branding for me in the past when I was still, producing as Basscliff. I mean, these days I just do my other projects like Analog Soul and Maxcel Davis. But Chris got in touch. We were just catching up one time and talking about it. And he's saying, hey, he liked what we're doing with the school and um, Oh, to circle back to, we were just asking about how, people would start with the school. Um, yeah, usually either with things like mentoring or other courses like the road to main stage is probably the main one that guides people along that path. And most of our courses are on music production, music theory, all this kind of thing. So this is the first one. What we've done, which is more about kind of like the outside of it, like the stuff that's a part of it. There's maybe not the music and it's the branding part of it. And it's, um, I think for a lot of people, it just, it's just the voodoo, the missing thing where you're just like, what is that thing? I don't know. How does that work? How do I even approach that? Do I have time for that? I might do only do that when I'm famous or is that super expensive? And I mean, it is actually super expensive if you. Even like Chris is, yeah, cause he's good at what he does. He's really damn good at what he does. So I was, I said, would you ever consider doing, um, a course with us to help our students with this stuff and share some of your knowledge? And he's like, I'd love to do that. That would be amazing, you know, to get them started so they can do this kind of thing themselves. because it's just so mysterious otherwise. And maybe the best way to think about it, cause a lot of people confuse branding with marketing as well too. Branding is kind of like, you know, the style of you or the vibe of you as an artist. Like it's kind of like, if you think about like a favorite movie or something that has a sudden aesthetic to it, that's kind of like the branding of it. Like, I dunno, like Sin City or Star Wars or something or Blade Runner, there's a feel and a vibe to it. You know, like if you saw a Blade Runner poster, you can already kind of imagine what it's going to look like before I even, you know, I wouldn't have to show you. And that's what the branding is for artists as well to have that feeling of, um, This is the, the aesthetic because we already, your music is your sonic aesthetic. This is the visual aesthetic that goes along with it. And it can tell, it can communicate a lot. It can communicate a lot to your fans so that they know, Oh, this is my vibe. This is something I want to know more about. And this is something I want to be a part of passionately. This is something I want to wear on my t shirt and be proud of because I feel like. Uh, I connect with it. I'm, that's me too, you know, like it's giving them something to believe in, in a way too. I suppose it's putting of your taste out there, so people who like your taste can connect with you and you guys can run together. So it's super helpful for that, for people to understand you, super helpful. Once you've got that set up for labels, for bookings, for, and even getting collaborations for anything you want in your music career, having a branding dialed in, we'll just make all of that easier. And it will make your own decisions easier because you kind of have sat down and taken the time to figure out what am I actually all about? What am I actually trying to achieve here? And then suddenly the path becomes really clear because you've gotten rid of a whole bunch of options instead of thinking, Oh, I could do anything. No, no, no. I have a clear picture, a clear path. I will do this.

Nik:

Yeah. Yeah. No, a thousand percent. I think really understanding who you are as an artist and what you're trying to say, you know, we know that it is about more than just the music. I like what Chris always says is the music is just the soundtrack to the movie. What's the actual movie? What's the movie about? Right. And a lot of artists haven't really taken time to sit down and think about that, right? Like, okay, yeah, I'm going to put out tracks. Cool. But you know, sometimes I see artists where it's like, okay, all you're doing is just posting about your music and your top five DJ songs and your whatever. I'm like, okay, that can kind of carry you so far. Most likely you're only, you're probably going to get a lot of other followers that are other. Producers too, because all you're talking about is how you're making your music or whatnot and they're probably not going to be the ones coming out and buying tickets and going to shows right you want to build like a A bigger fan base You got to have something to say right and something to say something that you're about something that you stand for Also, yeah, like the vibe the look like how are you presenting yourself? All of that makes a big difference what i've been saying a lot lately to clients is like if there's a lineup of 10 different artists in front of me. And everybody's kind of making more or less the same music, not the same music, but it's all great, good, you know, good music that I could and would listen to. Why am I going to choose to follow this one artist versus the others? Like, why is this going to become my favorite artist? And it's probably going to be because of more than just the music. There's something else about that person that I resonate with, You know, they've got a similar story to me or They have the same values. There's just something about them that I'm attracted to. If we're not showing those parts of ourselves also, we're actually losing out on The ability to have a deeper connection with, uh, with our fans. So as you can tell, I love branding stuff. I've, you know, done so much stuff with Chris as well. The branding world is really, really cool. I love seeing you guys, come together to create that. So if anyone needs help with branding, definitely go out there and check out that course. And you mentioned also that you have, uh, you're not really doing the bass clef project per se anymore, but you have some new projects that you're doing. What are those called?

Bass Kleph:

So when I, when I took that time off, when I ran out of time, I started the school, I had the choice of this new music I make. Should I, um, keep it under bass clef or it's an opportunity to, as we're just saying, rebrand and, and do something new and have a fresh start. And I thought, yeah, I think I might do that because I changed styles so many times over the years. I wanted to kind of do something fresh and really plan it out, the look and feel and everything from the start. So I started this project called Analog Soul. and it's kind of named after my love of analog synths and sounds and 80s kind of nostalgia. And uh, soul being like Spanish for sun. I love sunsets and stuff too. And I was thinking all my, uh, favorite shows, was basically always the ones that were like sunset parties, beach parties, boat parties. I'm like, I want to make music for those moments and go and play those moments. They're so fun, you know, and, uh, I love that vibe. So I'm like, that's got me going down that path. And yeah, man, it kicked off really well. Like the, I think the first track got signed to, uh, Armada, a track of mine called Trinidad Dreams. Still doing super well for me. And put out loads and loads of tracks since then too. The style is kind of, you know, I've done a few different things, bit of melodic house and techno, bit of afro house, bit of deep house. It's heading more down the deep house sort of direction a little bit these days. But it's loads of fun. It's totally driven by fun. And it's, I wanted to bring back something as well from when I started, which was playing live electronic music. That's how my first things were all live, wasn't DJing. And I kind of put it to the side because everyone was DJing. So I just kind of, I don't know, went with the crowd. I don't think I should have. So I got back into doing all this stuff live. Absolutely love it. It's so fun. I played a bunch of live shows with it now as well too. I do loads of live videos and I've been connecting with, um, building my audience around that people that also appreciate and love live music and we can connect over that and give them tips. I'm actually thinking about maybe even doing some training on playing live now as well too because I'm keep getting people asking me, how do you do this? How do you do

Nik:

Yeah. Yeah.

Bass Kleph:

um, yeah, it's, it's super fun, um, with the whole kind of live synthesized type thing. And the latest version of my live show is something I've really been wanting to do since I was a kid. It's totally improvised. Like I don't even know what I'm going to do when I get up there. Yeah. And, you know, I remember having a memory. When I went to one of my first big music festivals, I was like 17, 18, and I saw these guys up there playing, right? They would DJ. I thought they were playing live or something. I didn't know anything about it. Anyway, big crowd, everyone's going crazy. I'm just like, as a drummer, I'm like, wow, they're making all this right now. That's amazing. And then I only realized later, Oh, they're DJing. They're, you know, pressing play and the track plays, you know? I mean, I mean, sure. There's a lot more that goes into DJ than that, you know, picking the right song at the right time and all these things, but just not my teenage imagination that wasn't happening. And yeah. And then years later, as I get into production, I start to realize, okay, it's actually incredibly difficult to play. Totally improvised dance music, slightly rehearsed, yep, much more doable, but with some recent technology that's come out and combining it with what I've learned over the years, yeah, I've been able to now start doing it. Yeah, there's this sequencer I use called the Torso T1 that really helps for just improvising and changing things up on the spot and, uh, man, it's amazing. Yeah, they're super, super fun. Love doing the Analog Soul stuff.

Nik:

I love how many times you use the word fun in the last few minutes as you were telling me about your project and if you're not watching on YouTube, this guy's the biggest smile on his face as he's saying everything that he's doing. You're obviously very very lit up about it and obviously continuing to use fun as the guiding force and I also love just to point this out. You're also diving into this sort of live, improvised, music making technology, it seems like you're also still kind of pushing the boundaries of like where things are, similar to when, when you started, right? You were, finding the new technology. And, uh, know, I always say that there's two different kinds of producers. There's the producers That want to find the formula of like, this is just how this is my sound. And this is how it works. And I've cracked the code and I'm searching on how to find this sort of destination. And then there's the ones that are like. More so constantly seeking the next thing. What's the next new way that I can try things and so, um, you know, I see, you know, there's, there's a bit of a, of a, of it both of like, Hey, here's some systems and some processes that you can follow, with production and, and what works, what's going to make it easier, but also like, yeah, let's keep trying new shit. Let's keep pushing the boundaries. Let's keep seeing what else is out there.

Bass Kleph:

Totally exploring is again so fun, you know, like just seeing I love this stuff and um, I guess I'm still the same kid still playing with my machines making weird sounds and having a great time with it and still, you know, even sometimes maybe if I'm not sure if I feel like it or something and I have a quick jam and then suddenly I'm like, oh, that's awesome. Let's go. Let's go. Come on. All right. You know, I don't, I don't need a crowd to have a good time to play as well too. I'll be jamming by myself all the time for hours and just, you know, just having a great time. Yeah. It's awesome, man. That's how I write all my music now is I. I just jam, and I record it multitrack, and then um, often I'll post snippets of this, just so I'm sharing it with people, and if people come back and everyone says they really like one of the songs, I'll go and mix it down and put it out.

Nik:

You just tapped into a really I think cool and interesting shift that we're seeing happen now of You know, it used to be that like let me write this song let me put it out and then see how it does and It's like now you can put out a snippet and see how it does and see like what's vibing like you you have like a An audience that you can test your music out to kind of like a DJ would go out and test their tracks out at the club. If you've got a following on social media, like you go test your stuff out there and kind of see what pops off. And also just, you know, I'm seeing a little music business strategy, but then it's like, you can also use that as leverage to then go show like a record label. Like, Hey, I posted a snippet of this song and it got a hundred thousand views. Do you want to sign it? You're now coming with metrics to the label. So just a nerd out on a little music business stuff there. But.

Bass Kleph:

Absolutely right, man. Yeah. And I love this kind of system because it feels like I'm sort of connecting more with my audience and they're, um, involved in the process a bit more. And I love all this stuff on jamming. I have a great time with it. And there's loads of songs, you know, I'd be excited to finish, but so I should, I may as well ask them too. What do you guys want me to finish next?

Nik:

yeah, well, speaking of fun, speaking of following the fun, I've had a ton of fun catching up with you. It's so rad to see, everything that you're up to, everything that you've built. For anyone that's out there that is looking to get help with their music production, All you out there that are over complicating your shit and want to finish tracks more quickly and get tracks actually done, not have a hundred songs that are 80 percent done sitting on your laptop, you know who you are. I'm calling you out right now. For anyone that needs help with their production as well as anyone that's also, you know, trying to figure out their branding, where can they go To check out the courses that you offer?

Bass Kleph:

To our music school, bassclef. com. B A S S K L E P H dot com. Yeah, you can see all the stuff on there. There's loads of great free stuff as well, too. And if you have any questions, you can drop me a line on there, and yeah, I'll get right back to you.

Nik:

Hell yeah, when I'm ready to finally learn how to produce, I'll hit you up and get in there with you guys.

Bass Kleph:

I got you, man. You should do it. Anytime.

Nik:

make some beats.

Bass Kleph:

Yeah, exactly.

Nik:

for taking the time to hop on today brother, super good to see you.

Bass Kleph:

Thanks so much for having me. Super great to see you as well, too. Let's do it again soon sometime.

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Nik Cherwink

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