LAIDBACK LUKE - How To Have A 30-Year Career In The Dance Music Industry

Laidback Luke is a legend in the dance music industry, with almost 30 years of experience as a DJ, producer and artist who has wrote timeless hits and toured the world many times over.

In this episode we discuss the importance of helping your peers, the dangers of partying, surviving crazy touring schedules, imposter syndrome and much more.

Follow Laidback Luke here:
https://www.instagram.com/laidbackluke
https://www.threads.net/@laidbackluke
https://www.youtube.com/laidbackluke
https://www.tiktok.com/@laidbacklukemm

Follow Nik Cherwink here:
https://www.instagram.com/nikcherwink

And visit my site to join the mailing list or book a free coaching call:
https://www.nikcherwink.com

Transcript

Host: 0:00

We still have that little voice in our head that says, we're not good enough. You need to prove yourself every single day. Like you can't do it. Why do you, you know, imposter syndrome? Why do you think you're worth it? And, so many people are struggling with this and I call it the enemy of the soul, where it's like literally the biggest battle you have is the battle against yourself.

Nik: 0:36

What's up, everybody. Welcome to the Headliner Mindset podcast. Today's guest is a true pioneer and legend in the dance music industry. He has been in the game for over 30 years and has played a pivotal role in the history and culture of electronic music. He has produced some of the biggest, timeless classics we all know and love, toured the world many times over, and has helped launch and support the careers of some of the biggest DJs in the world. This is Laidback Luke.

Host: 1:01

Hey, what's up?

Nik: 1:03

My man! Thank you for being here, dude. This is such an exciting honor to have you, I have a feeling we're going to get into some really good juicy stuff. And so, yeah, thank you for being here.

Host: 1:14

It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me. And what an interstellar intro. Made me feel really good about myself, all of a sudden.

Nik: 1:21

that's my goal is just to gas people up so that they're just, pumped from the get go. Um, I do want to start this episode off giving a big shout out to my man, Carlos Alcala, the head of thrive music, you know, I truly believe in manifestation and I love how things work. You have been at the top of my list of artists that I wanted to have guests that I wanted to have because you have a similar passion for mental health, for personal development, for opening the curtains and showing people what's going on behind the scenes. And so Carlos just happened to mention, he's like, yeah, he's like, I could make an intro for you. And, uh, not only did he make an intro. But he wrote this beautiful email. He basically was my publicist, like pitching, you know, pitching the podcast. So shout out, Carlos. Uh, really, really appreciate you. And, uh, thanks for, yeah. Thanks for being down to hop on.

Host: 2:14

had a really nice conversation with Carlos during, uh, this, uh, Miami Music Week. And, um, yeah, just such genuine conversation. And he hit me up on the email and told me about you. And I was like, Man, I think we have so much in common, and I think this will be really good for us to discuss, uh, you know, the things we're about.

Nik: 2:34

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think that's a great place to start is. the importance of sharing and helping and supporting, right? Like Carlos was down like, Hey, yeah, Nick, how can I help you? How can I support you? And that is such a part of the culture of dance music. I think it's really embedded into the DNA of what this is all about. I'm like, Oh, Hey, you got a cool song. I'm going to play that song in my set. I'm going to, I'm going to share your music with my fans and vice versa. And you seem like someone that has always. be a part of your ethos because I have heard so many artists talk about how they came up, learning how to produce by going to the laid back Luke forum.

Host: 3:18

Yeah, that's

Nik: 3:19

that sounds like that's something that's been kind of a part of what you've been doing for a long time. I'd love to hear, like, what was the inspiration for you starting that forum in the first place?

Host: 3:28

Well, it's interesting. So, when I came up in the, in the mid 90s, uh, I just remember coming up against so many established, DJs and producers, and they were all so cocky. They would not give me the light of day, and because I was always an enthusiast, uh, within the dance music, and I loved going to raves and everything, and it was also, also euphoric, and I'll just, uh, uh, uh, call out the whole, uh, plur movement and that type of thing that you get as an audience. But then when you go to the industry part of the game, all of a sudden you realize this is, it's very cutthroat. And I remember coming up thinking, man, if I ever make it, I don't ever want to be that person. I want to be that person I was looking for as an up and coming talent. And so, so I, I've always kept that in my mind. And I got to give a shout out to Chocolate Puma, who were my discoverers and who were my mentors. And Gaston from Chocolate Puma from day one, he was not that person. He was super kind and super open to share his knowledge. And I basically, became a mini Gaston, so to say, um, and so the more successful I got, the more I put that in fruition and you asked me how my forum came to be, for instance, and it's a really cool story. It's, uh, basically in, uh, the year 2000, how about that? My website got launched, laidbackloop. com. I had a significant career already internationally, but more so in the Netherlands, and I had a guest book on my forum, and I remember from day one, a couple of young unknown producers came up on there asking me producer questions. Hey, how can I EQ a kick drum, or what should I use on my master channel? And me being the producer nerd that I am, I was like, oh, these are such fun questions. I have no secrets. And so, I was typing, I was typing, and word spread around, and the more people came on there, the more rows of questions we had, and people were scrolling, and at a certain point, about a year in, I was like, I need to turn this into a forum, so we have like an organized view of things, and people can ask mastering questions there, and kick drum questions there, And then, so, in a very organic way, the Laidback Luke Forum got formed.

Nik: 6:00

yeah, very cool. Very cool. You know, like I said, I, I remember hearing so many people talking about them learning on that because that was one of the first kind of educational resources in the industry. Now you've got YouTube and all these other, you know, so many places that you can learn from, but you really were a pioneer, I think, in that space. And I really love to point out, ultimately, Yeah, absolutely. The difference between, you know, what we're talking about here is gatekeeping, right? We're talking about like, hey, I'm not gonna, Carlos could have been like, Oh, no, I'm not going to share my contacts with you. You know, these are my contacts. I built that relationship, right? And there's a lot of people that operate that way. And I'm really big on energy, right? The energy you put out is the energy you get back. If you're living in the energy of scarcity, right? Gatekeeping is there's not enough to go around. I'm not going to share. Well, then, okay, you're now living in the energy of scarcity, and that's you're just attracting more scarcity into your life as opposed to when you're like, Hey, there's enough to go around. You know, I'm happy to help people. I'm happy to share my resources, happy to share my wisdom, my knowledge, my contacts, whatever it may be. And you live in that energy. Again, whatever you put out is what you're going to get back, you know, and I've been living that way for a long time and I just see it come back tenfold, you know, so it's, um, it's cool to see that you took that path instead of the path of, fear and scarcity and gatekeeping that so much of the industry, uh, falls into, unfortunately.

Host: 7:21

Yeah, it's interesting. For me, it also has to do with the joy that I experience from this and to give other people that joy as well. And I do truly believe it's such a big world, it's such a big scene, there is enough for everyone to go around and, um, Yeah, you'll often see that the gatekeepers are quite bitter. Whereas people who share, you know, you just share with joy and for me, one of my, my biggest blessings were seeing a couple of my students grew big and bigger than myself and became true dance music legends. And for me, it's an honor to be part of that. It doesn't translate into any money or that sort of thing. It's more of like, um, Well, these are the things that money can't buy, actually. And, and that's the gold, man. That's, that's it.

Nik: 8:14

I get that, you know, I was, I was working, um, I was working in the industry managing and, doing the, the business thing for a while. And then I got invited to teach music business, to teach a class at a school called icon collective, music production school in Los Angeles. And it was the one hour a week that I would get away from all of the management industry bullshit. And I would just go and just teach. to a little small group of students, and there was something inside of me that lit up, and I was like, this feels good. This feels good to share and to inspire. And I ended up becoming a part of that school for seven years, helped them grow and, and, you know, we've had so many artists go on to become full time internationally touring headlining artists. And to be able to be like, wow, like I help them, you know, Meet their manager or get their first track signed or whatever little little piece I could play there's a level of fulfillment where it's like, yeah, I can't go make ten grand off a deal And it's like, okay cool. There's that's money. That's nice, but it doesn't give you the same Fulfillment that humans give you you know, like that real that's the real stuff right

Host: 9:23

I just had goosebumps with you, uh, expressing that because you know exactly how that feels like. And also to just see them from day one being hungry, eager, naive, and then coming up, and then later meeting them when they're established, it's, it's just insane. It's amazing.

Nik: 9:41

yeah, yeah, that's great. Now, one of the reasons I got real excited about having you come on the podcast was I came across your YouTube channel, which is another platform now that you are sharing so much wisdom and so many resources, which I came across a video that really caught my eye. It was a video where you were responding to, um, David Guetta had put something out The reality of touring and he was like, I haven't been home in five months and y'all think that this is just fun and games, but I'm living out of suitcases. And also in that same video was, uh, this, there was this duo called Candyland that I knew them. I was friends with them from back in L. A. So I knew them when they were, uh, Coming up and and was part of that scene in that era and uh, one of the members had decided that like, Hey, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quit. This just isn't for me. This lifestyle isn't for me. So That video really caught my eye. Highly recommend everybody go out and, check that, specific video out. Uh, it was called responding to David, get it in Candyland. But that just introduced me to your whole YouTube channel. And I was like, Oh, wow, there is so much great stuff here. So many conversations that, um, that need to be had that I think most people aren't really having. And so, I'd love to open up the the dialogue around that, you know, because I think that Not everybody knows what it really entails To be a full time touring artist and a full time touring DJ and I think you know, you've obviously done it yourself, but you've probably seen a lot of other artists, come up and climb that ladder of success. What would you say are some of the traps that artists fall into as they start to become successful?

Host: 11:26

I'm smiling because there's so many and I see the new generation of of big name DJs come up throughout the pandemic that are actually falling into this trap. You know how uh John Summit the other day had put on his TikTok and they compared him his lifestyle like oh doesn't he remember what happened with Avicii or something and um and he responded to that which was great. Now, mind you, John Summit is, is a machine and is a, is a persona. A lot of this persona is built for him. That's the thing he puts out towards the crowd, but I've seen a lot of these newer DJs as well. I met them in the airports after a Miami Music Week, thinking of, uh, of vodka and alcohol at the airport being totally spaced out still going to the next show. And, uh, it reminded me of my My glory days where I was like, you think you're living the life, but it's, it's a, it's a, um, it's a trap. And it's, it's something you can't maintain. And it's really that simple. And it's not about DJs complaining or anything. It's just if you go that route of constant partying, not taking care of yourself, not getting any sleep, um, It is interesting. So when you come up as a young talent, you are eager to make it. You put the work in, you put the work into productions, you put the work into crafting amazing sets and mashups and everything, and you are all in, in your home environment. In the studio, at a certain point, you hit big and, and the whole schedule changes where all of a sudden you're not in your studio anymore and you are more in flights than you are in cabs or. Uh, in Ubers. And I remember for me, I was talking to, uh, a steward this once and we compared the amount of flights we took and she, she told me, uh, she would take a hundred flights, uh, on a yearly base. And I was like, wow, that's crazy.'cause I take about 200 and, uh, and it's that type of realization. And so how are you gonna maintain what you, the, the trajectory you had before? How can you maintain that on tour while partying, while being in hotel rooms, while producing in airplanes, combining that with drinking and maybe because you're a star now, all of a sudden the deadlines pile up and there's more interviews for you and there's more social media for you. There's more tracks to be finished, remixes, collaborations. And again, it's not about, uh, DJs complaining, but it's just a whole lot you need to deal with. And to be frank, there is no time to party. There is no time to get drunk because you have no time to take care of your, uh, hangover. I remember when I used to drink that, you know, at a certain point when you're getting older, the hangovers last two days. So, so basically you're going into the one hangover to the next, to the next, and then I had a family life as well, so then when you come home, family gets to deal with the, with the backside of it, with a, a dad that needs to catch up on sleep for, catch like a, I remember sleeping 14 hours when I, when I hit my own bed at a certain point. And then for two days I would be in a mood because of the hangover and it's like, man, when I look back at that, it's, I wish someone had told me how bad it was. And so, yeah, I see, I remember seeing this post as well of a young DJ who finally hit it big last summer. And, uh, he was in his private jet and he was complaining in his private jet. Complaining about, you know, not having the time for X, Y, and Z. Just being in the jet, going from gig to gig. And mind you, if you play a show every single night, that, at a certain point, is like, um, having Nobu every night, or having sushi every night. Day 14, it becomes the most normal thing in the world, and maybe day 15, you don't want to eat it anymore. Same goes for shows and, and dealing with the attention, the pressure of going on stage. The need to perform, the need to put your utmost best out there because you're on the big stages now and I hope I can illustrate a bit of that type of pressure that goes on, uh, when you, when you hit it bigger.

Nik: 16:02

I imagine that when you started and things were popping off and you're getting to start to live that lifestyle, like, Ooh, I'm flying all over the place. There was a period where it was fun. And then it sounds like there's a period where it kind of became work. Like you had sushi seven nights of the week and it, you know, it probably lost a little bit of the allure. How long were you doing it before it got to that point?

Host: 16:27

Well, I have a couple of funny stories because I, I met a couple of DJs at the end of their summer tour. Uh, one of them was David Guetta, whom I met during Mysteryland main stage in the Netherlands. Uh, this must have been, what was it, 2010, 2011, I was working with him. And I met him at the, this Mysteryland show was the last show of his summer tour. And he took over from me on stage, and I looked at him and I was like, David, you look like a zombie, what's going on? And he's like, well this summer I was so dedicated to get the number one position in the DJ mag, I just took on all the shows they threw at me, And I just, in this summer I did, uh, what was it, like 50 or 60 shows and he was, he was dead. Uh, and I was like, oh my god, wow, you've been working so, so hard. And I remember Dimitri Vegas and, like, Mike coming up and them doing their first busy summer ever. Must have been around 2000, uh, yeah, 2010, 2012 as well. Really big summer. first summer ever. I remember meeting them in Ibiza at the end of their season and they both looked like David Guetta looked like pure zombie nation. And I was like, guys, wow, you, this must have been your busiest summer ever, right? And the guys nodded and I was like, well, how did that feel? And they were like, man, we are wrecked. Like we are done. And something that's not often discussed, but it's something that I see. a lot around me, and especially if this is your first big summer. Now, imagine this was your first big summer, and then there's next summer, and the summer after, and the summer after, and the summer after. I remember in one of my busiest summers ever, this was, yeah, definitely 2010. So this was the structure. It's a European summer tour. You play your show, you end up back in your hotel room at like 3 a. m. You're taking the first flight out at like 6. 50 a. m. So you need to be at the airport at like 5 a. m. So you cramp in one hour of sleep. Then you take two planes, and then you drive for three hours, ending at the next destination, where two hours in, you need to do your next show. And then the whole thing starts again, starts again, starts again. And I remember by the end of that summer, we went on an airplane at, you know, another 6 a. m. or whatever. And I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm literally not getting on this plane anymore. I cussed at my tour manager. I was like, why are we taking the earliest flights out? And he's like, but yeah, it's a big travel, you know, two planes and a drive. And I was like, If I would have an office job, I would not even be at the office right now. But yet I've been working until 3 a. m. last night. And you expect me to again, go on this plane. I was done. I was finished. And a lot of times the travel doesn't make sense. And here's something I want to bring up that I've been talking about or amongst other DJs as well. There's no DJ union. So whomever is watching and whomever is like, Wow, he's right. There's no DJ union. Basically, they can book us, you know, the one weekend in Asia and the other week in the States and then, you know, do a European tour afterwards, which would, in like, um, an office environment, this would be inhumane environments.

Nik: 20:09

Hundred hour work weeks.

Host: 20:11

Exactly. You don't do that to your workers, right? Yet, you know, because for our hunger for Shows and and possibly bringing the money in or doing doing as much as we can. We don't even think about that and then

Nik: 20:25

now until there is a DJ union though. I mean, it seems like that would be a bit of the DJ's responsibility to also have some boundaries and say, Hey, no, like, like, cause obviously, you know, your, your manager and your agent are there to, to push the business forward, but I can see how there might be a push and pull of getting pushed too hard. And when do you speak up and say, Hey, actually, I can't handle this, you know, what, what's that conversation look like?

Host: 20:53

well, that's what hurt me really bad watching the Avicii documentary where Plenty of times he told everyone like I don't want to do this I can't and then you have the the business people around him saying oh, but you know We've just booked this tour in Australia. There's so much money riding on this. And you gotta continue. Let's take you out of that hospital bed, because you just collapsed. And let's throw you into the stadiums again. But even his friends, they were like, Oh yeah, it's your, you know, it's your farewell tour. Just, just go on stage and have fun. And he wasn't having fun. And, um, Yeah, that struck a nerve because a lot of times we don't have that voice.

Nik: 21:37

Yeah.

Host: 21:38

You can't complain because you're making great money, right, but that money won't pay for your, uh, for your health, for your mental health. Uh, Yeah. it's, it's possibly fun to buy the car you've always wanted or whatever, but it doesn't weigh up, man. No.

Nik: 21:56

Yeah. Yeah. So what's the solution to helping artists actually stay healthy, mentally, physically, to actually be able to survive these crazy touring schedules? We talked about cutting out alcohol, not getting fucked up is probably a good start, but what else can people do to actually really survive this kind of lifestyle?

Host: 22:21

Yeah, well. Interestingly enough, it's easier said than done, right? You just cut out alcohol, but we're in a party scene. You know, every single show there is bottle service girls ready to, give you free alcohol the whole night. There's other people around saying like, Oh, you're the life of the party. Come have a shot with us. And you're like, no, no, I gotta keep it professional. And I can't because laid back Luke said so in his podcast and whatnot. I do think one of the, the bigger solutions is, is us talking about this, keeping on spreading the word. And, um, yeah, until there's a, a solidified DJ union, we're just coping, man. And it's, it's really, yeah, my family in law always thinks it's interesting how professional I keep this, where I arrive an hour before the show to listen to the other DJ, play my show and then get out and. There's always like a, after parties are a no go, I'll have one champagne, but like, for fun and laughs, and that's it, one glass of champagne. The thing you need to remember is, is that it's all a trap. It's just a trap. And this might not be in that same type of corner, but I do want to put it out there. The same goes for the, the groupie life, the groupie thing. And this is why I want to say it, because it's, it's a mindset of when you see it as a trap, and you note it as a trap, then you won't fall into the trap. And there's so many traps like that, where, you know, at a certain point, if you're a big star DJ, there's also a lot of female attention. And especially nowadays, you can get in a lot of trouble with that. I'm at a point nowadays where I, whenever I take pictures with people, I don't even touch them anymore. Because you can get in trouble. It's like, okay. And so the same goes for drinking, and the same goes for other stupid things you can think of. It's all a trap.

Nik: 24:24

Yeah. Well, I, I think the big mindset shift is, you know, this is called the headliner mindset, right? Are you seeing yourself as a headliner? Are you seeing yourself as a professional? Are you seeing yourself as a business owner or are you seeing yourself as. I'm a DJ out here having fun, enjoying the ride and enjoying the roller coaster. Right. Cause I do see when I look at some of the a listers that I, that I know and that I've worked with, there's a different mindset, you know, I think I remember seeing like Steve Aoki was one of the first ones that I really saw that shift where he was a hard party and dude for a long time. And he's, you know, known for playing like the most amount of shows every year. Also, he's playing. 200 shows, 250 shows or something crazy like that. And, you know, I remember seeing him make that shift to be like, all right, I'm doing yoga and I'm drinking green juice and I'm taking care of my body because here's the thing is you are the machine that's running the whole business, right? If your body is breaking down, if your mental health is breaking down, especially at that A list level is like, you're a multimillion dollar machine, you're a fucking Ferrari, you're an F1 car. How are you taking care of that thing? If that thing breaks down, then the whole thing crumbles. And you know, I think there's the artists that have kind of realized that along the way. And there's also those outliers where they still somehow survive and they, they party, they're still doing it. I think that's like the, there's like the 1 percent maybe that, that does that. But, I like that you said, It does start with us having these conversations, and this has gotta be probably the sixth or seventh time I'm having this conversation now with artists where, they have said, When I decided to put the partying behind is when shit really took off for me. That's when I had my breakthrough to the next level. That's when I started getting better gigs, found a better team, it's just making that decision of why are you in this, Are you in this just for the party or do you actually really love the, the lifestyle and love the process and, and really want to have a longevity in your career.

Host: 26:25

Well, you can be in this for the party, and I always encourage, people that think whatever I'm stating isn't true. I'm like, okay, try it for a year. Let's see how it goes. Um, and then there's a, like you said, there's the, the bigger names, because, obviously, dance music has a long history, and the first generation of DJs, they were partiers. They were doing drugs, they were doing after parties, they were playing long hours, and it's funny, when you look back, and I won't say any names, but when you look back, you see how much of the years that ticked off on the, the latter side, where it's like All of a sudden you see these people that are way older looking than they are and, and they've had a life, so to say. So, whatever you party now, also, remind yourself that you're just chipping off years at the end of it, where it's like, yeah.

Nik: 27:20

I'm glad you bring that up because before we had this podcast, I was preparing today and I was like, I'm going to go look at his catalog. I want to see like, when did you put out like your first track? And I'm scrolling down Spotify and I'm scrolling. And I'm scrolling and I'm, I had to scroll for like five minutes to get to the bottom of it. I was like, this guy's put out so many tracks. And the first track you put out, I think it was like 1999 or in, in something like that on, at least on Spotify.

Host: 27:48

Can I, can I flex for a moment,

Nik: 27:50

flex. bro.

Host: 27:51

I'm gonna flex. Because Spotify went online in 2008. Which was 13 years into my career. 13 years after I had put out my first track. My first track came out on vinyl, which was in 1995. And so, uh, next year, I'll be putting out music for 30 years. Yeah.

Nik: 28:18

old is laid back Luke? Because you look fucking great. You look like you look amazing. Like you don't look like the, the weather DJ that's, that's partied for 30 years. Like you're taking care of yourself.

Host: 28:30

Thank you. Yeah. no, it's weird. It's genetics as well. I'm not doing any Botox or anything, nothing. So I thank my Filipino genes. And I guess my Dutch side of my family looks okay for their age as well. I'm old, man. I am gonna be Well, I'm 47 right now. I'm gonna be 48 this year. Um, yeah, so, yeah, definitely old, definitely thankful. If I Google other 47 year olds, it should be, you know, different type of look. Um, but I, I also think I still have the passion, like I have not given up on life or anything, or my career. And furthermore, I'm telling myself I'm in some sort of midlife crisis. music crisis where I'm like, I'm getting this second wind right now. And I, I don't know if you follow me on Instagram or on TikTok, but I am all over the place right now. I'm having fun responding to people, having fun putting these videos out. It feels like there's a new season coming for me. I am also going to change my musical direction. And it's all starting again for me. So I am going to go into this whole thing again. And I'm not gonna be that old guy. I'm going to be the guy with experience, but this feels like a second coming to me.

Nik: 29:47

yeah, man. Yeah, that's it. That's the secret ingredient because 38 and I get, you know, oftentimes we were like, Oh, wow, like you look, you look good for 38. You don't look like you're 30. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I, I take care of myself, sleep, diet, exercise, I eat well, try to drink water, all that stuff. But really, I think you hit the nail on the head. The secret is, I'm fucking excited, man. I'm passionate. I'm lit up about what I do, you know, and, and there's an energy that comes with that. So I'm really excited to hear that you're finding that second wind and you know, this is something that. I've been seeing a trend of, uh, because, so I, I do life coaching. I've been a professional life coach for the last five years. And I've worked with all sorts of different types of people, but I come from a long history of working in the music industry and eventually I realized I'm like, Hey, I'm going to just life coach the people that I know and that I've pretty much always worked with is, DJs, right? So I found this interesting little niche and. There's the up and coming artists that have their own set of challenges that they're trying to work through and trying to get to that level. But then I also have my clients that They're internationally touring, you know, successful artists. And I'm seeing this trend right now of, basically people that I think have, they've lost a bit of the passion, right? Where they're like, Oh, this has become a business. And what started off as them making music because they loved it. And they're putting this energy of fun and joy and passion into the music. And then that's why the music is becoming successful. From my opinion, from my perspective is they were just being genuine artists. The music starts to take off and then a business gets built around that. And then at some point there's a shift where now they're making music for the business. And after doing that for a little while, they're like, Hey, this isn't really becoming fun anymore. This isn't why I started, but there's this pressure to be like, I got to keep putting out tracks. I got to keep putting out hits to stay relevant, to keep my business going. Cause this is what's paying the bills. So I'm wondering, did you fall into that trap at any point? Did that ever come up for you and what helped you? It sounds like you're kind of, like you said, finding that spark again. So maybe you could speak into that.

Host: 31:52

Oh, you're preaching to the choir right now. Uh, cause I'm right now, exactly right now in the moment where I'm like, I'm, I'm just leaving all the business side out of it. Like I am done with that. I'm done with chasing stream. I'm done with chasing cloud. I'm done, putting music out with. You know, the, the notion of carrying the weight of the world and I'm, I'm back like where I was in my bedroom when I was 16 years old making music. I absolutely love and mind you, all of this needs to come into fruition. So I'm, I might just want to like a few years to catch up with you to see how it went. But already the feeling I, I get from it is it's, it's a relief. And, you know, there, there will be moments where I'll look at my Spotify or whatever and I'll see the numbers be down, but I think there's something there where ultimately my own happiness is worth so much more to me than chasing the trend or chasing the stream and, and I hope to ignite people with that as well. I, I, in the industry, I sense a really big resurgence coming in of, artistic creativity. And, uh, also because we're on the verge of, uh, the age of AI, I think that type of mindset where AI is very, um, you see that in chat GPT as well, if you want chat GPT to write an essay for you, it comes out very generic, whereas humans still have that edge where it's like, how can we do it where it's, it's edgy and artsy and, um. I want to lean into that coming season for sure. And it's definitely a trap that once you've, man, I remember scoring my first hit, my first track that got picked up and played by a lot of DJs. Now, mind you, this was 1997. But I remember after that, I was just keeping on trying to chase that carrot because I thought, Oh, they expect this from me. So they want more of this from me. So I need to make another one and I couldn't because the first one was genuinely like an accident that happened and then I kept on chasing that and it never happened and actually this, uh, led to my first burnout ever at the age of 21 where constantly in the studio I felt the pressure of the world on me. I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping, I needed to make that hit and it didn't happen and I just got burnt out. It was crazy.

Nik: 34:31

yeah. And you made that hit in the first place because you weren't trying to make a hit.

Host: 34:35

Yes.

Nik: 34:36

Right? It's like a, it's like a funny paradox. You know, I heard, um, my buddy Fetish talked about the same thing. He has that huge viral hit. Come check this. You know, it's on every billions and billions of plays. And he was like, Hey, he's like, I tried to make another one. And I just couldn't do it. Cause I wasn't. Trying to make a hit. So he's like, I just fucking let it go and I just make whatever is fun. And, you know, I think that what we're really talking about is the difference between being an artist and being a DJ slash producer, there's a formula and there's a template to being a DJ slash producer. If you want to just, you know, follow the rules, chase the trends, chase the numbers, make stuff for labels rather than being an artist. Is. Following what you think is fun, following the passion, experimenting, playing, you're right back to like why you started that shit in the first place. And, if you're open to a reflection, I want to share about the first time I actually ever saw you DJ was EDC when was what this, this was probably 2011. Maybe it was like one of the first years that it had moved to Vegas. And, um, You know, you're deejaying house music because you're like, mostly like a house music artist house music DJ. All of a sudden I hear system of a down chop suey. in the middle of the set and I was like, wait, wait, wait. I was like, what did I just hear? And it was this moment of like, are you allowed to do that? And then later on in the set is just like, Dr. Dre, just not even a remix, not a house music remix. Just as the straight up original version from system of a down to Dr. Dre. And I was like, this motherfuckers out here breaking all the rules. And you know, it's like, You're an artist. That's what you're supposed to do as artists is break all the rules. So I'm glad that you're, you know, you're, you're, you're tapping into, you know, what you call Jake, like the artistry. And we are seeing a little bit of this, renaissance of artistry, especially now with genres. It's like, you know, you got john summit and sub focus, putting two genres in one song, like biggest song right now is like, it's house music, and then it's dubstep. And there's there's this whole sort of, you know, Fuck genres movement, which I think is beautiful. You know, I remember seeing seven lions for the first time and he played nine genres and in an hour I was like, Whoa, cool. There are no rules to this shit. As an artist, we should be pushing the boundaries, not just recreating the formula, right? Hmm.

Host: 36:57

That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, I um, I have uh, in the various DJ courses I teach, I have this lesson where, where you, you are allowed as a DJ to throw curveballs, especially if after that you can regain the energy of the crowd. That's awesome. And exactly that moment you spoke about where you were like, your, your head was turning. Like, you kind of want that as an artist. Also in the music you put out, where it's like, you hear some things like, Whoa, what is this? Whoa! If you can get that response, man, that'll, that'll give you a lot of, um, attention, for sure.

Nik: 37:36

You got to keep people on their toes, right? Yeah. That's super cool, man. Yeah. Now you mentioned also that, you know, you have a, um, you have a family, you have a wife, how many, and you have how many kids,

Host: 37:49

I have four kids.

Nik: 37:51

you have a wife and four kids. You know, there is this, I think, kind of deep programming for some artists that, you know, It has to be one or the other. Like if I'm going to choose this artist path, like I can't have a family or I have to sacrifice having a family. I, and I'm curious if you could, speak into how you've been able to balance, living that lifestyle and having that family. I think this is a really important conversation to have because I see this kind of mindset block come up for a lot of people thinking that they can't have it all. And I think they need to see more people that do have it all. And I would just love to hear. Yeah. How your experience has been being a full time touring professional DJ, but also being a husband and a father.

Host: 38:32

Well, honestly, Nick, it's, it's been a balancing act, and I look horrible on paper because I'm in my third marriage right now, Got two kids from the first wife, those are boys, one daughter from the second wife, and then one baby from the third wife, and I never set out to break up my families like that, and the only thing I can point at is me being a workaholic. And me trying to balance this career, this dream, this vision, this castle in the sky with family life. And so it's tough. I want to be real honest about that. Where it's, you know, if you have, if you do this as a, as a full time job, I've calculated it. Actually, my first wife, she calculated it. She calculated that I was, uh, at least taking 120 hours into this per week. So compare that with a normal job, right? And then try and see your family., And then, you know, try and combine it with some partying like I did back in the day. Getting drunk, loads of touring. And yeah, so where it left me, it left me with a stranded marriage, number one. And then marriage number two, So wife, wife number one was never into my career. She never married me because of me, me as a, as an artist because I was no one back then. So she saw me come up. Now wife number two, she saw me at my peak and she was a DJ as well. And she was like, yeah, it's totally cool what you're doing. Definitely stick the time into it. But I'm a workaholic at heart, so I was like, Okay, let's go! Let's go! So I went so hard, and that also costed me my marriage at a certain point, because I was just in the studio, we had a baby, I was trying to finish my album in a month, and, uh, yeah, it had its toll. Now in marriage number three, I, I hope I learn now to put my marriage in front of my career. That's a really important one. But still, you know, still I'm trying to fumble some hours in the studio here and there and you know, answering a couple of people on social media and I don't have the answer yet, Nick. It's been a balancing act and granted, I love my kids and I proudly present myself as a dedicated dad and my kids will tell you the same, especially the two older ones. But they'll also tell you that they haven't seen me. Half of their lives either. So I want to be real honest with them and put that out there.

Nik: 41:12

yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for opening up and sharing about that. And, you know, I'm, I'm single. So this is coming from a single guy that is not married. So I have, I have no authority to actually give any advice on this. But I will say from my personal, I think, opinion is, um, you know, there is a difference between the quality of time and the quantity of time, right? Because sometimes you can spend, I could spend a whole day with my partner, but actually not really be there. And I could be thinking about my work or being on my phone. And, and, you know, I've just experienced this in dating and it's a trap. I think a lot of us do fall into. And I see this a lot with clients where they're like, man, when I'm in the studio, I feel guilty because I feel like I should be with my partner. But then when I'm with my partner, I feel guilty because I feel like I should be working on music. And it's like, okay, well you've set yourself up for. that you're not going to be able to get out of. So it's kind of like whatever you're doing, make sure that you're a hundred percent focused on it. And when you do have time with your partner, you do have time with your kids. It's like, all right, they get a hundred percent of you rather than 50 percent of you because the other half of you still has one foot in the studio or whatever it is, you know, that's my philosophy. I, I, I'm going to try to practice that, you know, my best as well as, as I'm running, you know, my business and, and, and busy too. And, you know, starting to date or whatever, but, um, yeah, easier said than done, man. That's the balancing act,

Host: 42:36

Easier said than done. And I do think you struck a nerve there because I remember getting my first divorce and within the first marriage, I remember my kids coming to my studio chair as toddlers, and they were like, dad, dad, come see this, dad, dad, come see that. And I would always say like, no, not now I'm working. Can't you see I'm working? Go away or whatever. And I remember after the divorce, I needed to allocate, like my daddy days, they had two days every two weeks. But on those days, I told, my people and my team, I said, I am on do not disturb mode. You cannot, like, disturb me. I, I won't be answering anything. And I remember being there for them, playing games with them, communicating with them. Doing awesome stuff and, and I still do, do that when I, whenever I see them. This is quality time. But I, I see that and it's too easy. And the enemy of your soul will press into that. Like today, even today, we had a nice little outing with the family. And, you know, it's great. We're in a museum. And I get this notification come in of a, a show option that got cancelled. Confirmed and I need to answer this because, you know, it's, it's work and it's like, oh, I'm, I'm trying to type while the kid is, uh, wanting my attention to go into the ball pit or whatever. And yeah, it's just a balancing act and I guess it's, uh, uh, everywhere in life where, uh, I, I love it and I say this for myself as well. Just be present in that moment. You're right.

Nik: 44:08

Totally. Yeah. Easier, easier said than done. You know, life is still going to pop up. Work is going to pop up. I think, uh, you know, one, having a partner that also really, you know, they get it, they understand, like I'm not living a normal life. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm running a business that I'm going to have certain demands that in my life, that a normal nine to fiver that gets, they get to, That's just not me. And so having a partner that understands that in the first place and, and then also just, you know, really communicating, I think in that moment of like, Hey, Babe, I'm so sorry this thing came up. Is it okay if I check this like and having that little moment of check in? I think makes a big difference as well communication, of course, you know being the foundation of any great relationship Um, but then again, this is coming from the single guy that is not in the fucking arena right now So what do I know? uh but uh as someone who, is running your YouTube channel and, and, and having such a powerful presence online as a leader and as a mentor to, to really just so many people, what are some common conversations that you find yourself having a lot with up and coming artists? Are there certain themes and trends that you notice, of, you know, people maybe asking questions or, certain speed bumps that they're hitting?

Host: 45:24

Well, I struck a big nerve the other day posting a response to something James Hype had, uh, posted. And James Hype gave, his viewers, uh, four ways of becoming successful. And he had a, such an empowering little speech going on, but I thought he forgot one thing. And this one thing was, cause he's like, Oh, it's the battle against the people who didn't, didn't believe in you and it's the battle against the industry and it's a battle against, and I was like, he's forgetting the battle against yourself. And even you and I, uh, Nick as, as mentor people, we go through this. We still have that little voice in our head that says, we're not good enough. You need to prove yourself every single day. Like you can't do it. Why do you, you know, imposter syndrome? Why do you think you're worth it? And, um, so many people are struggling with this and I call it the enemy of the soul, where it's like literally the biggest battle you have is the battle against yourself. I've, told multiple of my talents that it's a mind switch. Instead of having that voice say you can't do it and you can't have it, why not have it say. You are worth it. You can have it. And I literally sit down with people and I tell them, You can have it. I wish you all the success in the world. I would love for you to reach everything you set out for. And so, so accept that for yourself as well. You are talented enough. This is what most people forget. And even sometimes when, when uh, Fellow DJs of mine get to the top. The imposter syndrome comes in super hard, where all of a sudden they're on a stage and, and now they get all the attention, the fame and the glory and whatnot. Now they see it's just, it's really that castle in the sky. And it plays mind games. For instance, for me, it's weird and it's been weird. Say I would play the Ultra Main Stage one weekend, and the other weekend. I'm just doing groceries with my kids and it's like, wow, that messes up my brain or, uh, I had a weekend with two shows and I had to take a private jet to make it to both shows. And then maybe on the flight back, I'm in coach again and it's like, what is happening? I thought I was all this. And so you can, you can put all of that in perspective. But, but the, the most. I want to emphasize is the enemy of the soul. Even now, even sitting here, I have this little voice in my brain saying like, Oh, second coming? You just mentioned the second coming. What are you going to show us then? You think you still got it? But even, you know, it could be as simple as going to the gym. Where you're like, you're working out, you're fighting. And this little voice says, yeah, just leave those three other reps out, right? Because you're old and you're weak or whatever. And it's like, ah, it's, it's constantly going.

Nik: 48:31

Yeah, yeah, and that's what, you know, the enemy of the soul. I also just call that the ego and and recognizing that that is is there. It's there to protect you. It's, it's a, you know, a lot of people say, kill your ego, right? And, and, and, and there's this battle against it for sure. But I almost look at it as rather than the battle against it, it's actually making friends with it and knowing that like, Hey, this voice, it just wants me to be safe. It wants me to be comfortable. It wants me to survive. If I put myself out there. That's dangerous. I might get rejected. People might criticize me. People might make fun of me, right? And so let's just stay over here. It's like it's actually coming from a good place. Like, I just I want you to be safe and I want you to be comfortable. But as most of us know, nothing great. In life has ever been accomplished from being safe and being comfortable like that is the game and and and I'm I'm big on that You know, I always say Uh, my big metaphor that I use with my clients is like get in the arena You know either you're on the sidelines and you are watching all the other gladiators, you know You're on the sidelines where it's comfortable eating your popcorn and your hot dog enjoying the show or you're actually in the fucking arena And that means that when you're out there You know You're going to get beat up. You're going to fail. You're going to get hurt. You're going to experience pain. That's part of it. But you just get to decide what kind of life you want to live. You know, it's, it's not always going to be sunshine and rainbows and butterflies. So yeah, it is a battle against that voice in, in, in that sense, for sure.

Host: 50:00

I love it that you mentioned that. I want to touch base on that as well, where, in my experience with me first coming up the first, having like big success, I was always quite good at my craft. I always set out to, to actually hone my skills in that sort of thing. So at a certain point I had a crossover hit, this was in 2003, and I hit it big, like, nationally in the Netherlands, and all of a sudden everyone knew me and whatnot, and here I thought I had made it. But on the flip side of it, I got so many haters, like, as many people loved me all of a sudden, as many people hated me, and even the people that knew me from before I was famous, They were hating on me. They were like, Oh, he's sold out and he's nothing anymore and his music sucks. And I was like, where does this hate come from? And even, even up until this day, you know, I had a peaceful night of sleep. I kissed my daughter on the forehead and made sure, you know, the wife was great. Even cooked a meal or whatever. We had a good workout together. You go to sleep, have a nice, nice night of sleep. Good night. And in the morning you go and look on your socials, there's a bunch of haters there just like hating your craft and it's like free hate, every single day coming out of nowhere because I thought I was doing a good thing, you know, last night or whatever. It's something I try and tell my talents as well that that that is something you need to deal with. And I love how he said in the arena because in the arena, you get that hate absolutely for free.

Nik: 51:38

Yeah. So how, how do you deal with it?

Host: 51:41

What I do is I try and look on the other side of things where, most of it is ignorance. So, for instance, if I put a YouTube, uh, video out, did a couple of weeks, uh, ago, I put a little producer YouTube short out, and I had cut all of my silences out just to not waste any people's time. And there was this kid responding under there, Oh, They, they cut out all of the, the silences because he doesn't know what he's talking about and it's probably his ghost producer, that did all of this and then he didn't know how to explain it and everything and I'm like, I needed to educate him where I was like, I've been a producer for 30 years, you know, go and look at my I know what I'm talking about, I had cut that out and I also came from a place of compassion where I'm like, okay, okay. We live in an era now where there's plenty of ghost produced people. So I understand your pain. I'm just not one of them. And you know, I hope you can be good. And what I personally like, it does take up a lot of energy. And my wife blesses me for my patients is actually having conversation with the haters. And I've noticed because I never come at them. I never cuss back. I never try and put them down because I, I understand. You know, maybe they've gone through something, maybe they've wanted this career, it didn't happen, and try to come from a compassionate place, and at a certain point, within some interactions, we are actually good together. Like, they understand me, I understand them, they are motivated to, to do more, and I like putting that type of energy out. And

Nik: 53:18

as they say I had a great experience with that not that long ago where this kid Replied to my story or something and just with just this just total hate out of nowhere And I don't I don't get a lot of hate, you know, and I was just like, okay One of my strategies is like let's say someone posts a comment that I don't like I'll just delete it now pretend like they don't exist and not give it any energy like super quick like oh Just poof you're gone moving on and I think that's a great strategy in this case. This guy had actually like DM to me something and I don't remember what I said exactly but I was just like hey, man, is that really? You know, the way that you want to, like, approach this. And I don't remember how I said it, but I decided to engage from a place of interest and a curiosity of kind of like, Hey, where, like, where was that coming from? And then, um, now we're like tight now. I like, you know, we flipped him. He's like, you know, he realized like, Oh yeah, you know what? Like actually that really wasn't cool. And I actually do respect you. And he'll like message me now too. And it's actually turned into like a, a funny little friendship. And I was like, yeah, man, you're, we're cool. But, uh, I think also there is something there as well about like, people don't learn unless you call them out, and they'll continue to be ignorant until you actually step step in. It's got to come from, uh, not from a place of defensiveness. If I'm just snapping back and I'm like, oh, you know, I'm bad. Snapping back at him, if it's actually coming from a place of groundedness and like, Hey, I actually care about you. I would love for you to maybe see things differently and the energy behind it is coming from the right place. Then we actually, I think, as leaders have the opportunity to really, truly influence people. So sometimes it is worth engaging.

Host: 55:03

you know what's interesting, Nick? I think, again, in the coming time of AI, where this whole landscape is going to change. And that's why I'm very engaging on social media at the moment. I think the humanity in all of this will shine through. This is why people enjoy listening to these podcasts as well, with two humans interacting. Because that human connection and that sense of community you can create from it, this will become so valuable over the next couple of years and people will really linger and hunger for, for this type of just basic human interaction, really.

Nik: 55:41

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I certainly have enjoyed this human interaction that I got to have today. Like I said, it is such an honor to have you on the show as someone who's been a fan for a long time. I've been in the scene for a long time, and I've seen you come up, but not only that, to actually see the impact that you're making and how you really are out there. Inspiring people and educating people, you know, it's a beautiful thing to see and and I'm glad that we can Yeah, both be aligned on that mission So thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to be a part of the podcast. I really appreciate it

Host: 56:15

Yes, sir. Thank you for having me and, and yeah, you as well. Keep on fighting the good fight and, uh, yeah, we'll make this last. We'll make this work. So thank you very much.

Nik: 56:25

yes, sir