JUSTIN JAY - How To Get Away With Making Multiple Genres

Next round of the Headliner Mindset group coaching program starts Monday, October 7th. Sign up here: https://www.nikcherwink.com/headlinermindset

Justin Jay is a truly eclectic artist who is able to bounce around between different scenes and genres by following the most important rule of being an artist… HAVING FUN!

In this episode we talk about to silence the inner critic inside our head, the importance of having community and how having fun should be every artists’ North Star.

Follow Justin here:
https://www.instagram.com/justinjaymusic

Follow Nik Cherwink here:
https://www.instagram.com/nikcherwink

And visit my site to join the mailing list or book a free coaching call:
https://www.nikcherwink.com

Transcript

Justin: 0:00

the most important thing to optimize for is very clear in my mind. It is to focus on having fun while making music. If you are not, Having fun making music, you are not going to make your best stuff. If you're not having fun making music, you're gonna want to stop doing it. Cause, if it's not fun, there's really no point.

Nik: 0:32

what's up, everybody? Welcome to the Headliner Mindset Podcast. Today's guest is a music producer and DJ who is truly pushing the boundaries of genres and not letting anyone put him in a box. He's playing shows all over the world, collaborating with all different types of artists, and obviously having a ton of fun in the process. Not only that, he is also really giving back to the community by mentoring other artists and helping them navigate both the creative and professional sides of their journey. This is Justin J. Thank you, bro. I, I pride myself on trying to, you know, put together a good intro for somebody, you know, we got to hype you up a little bit before we start these conversations.

Justin: 1:15

and also cause, Dude, I feel like, were you, were you ever an MC? Cause I feel like you would be amazing at

Nik: 1:22

Actually, you know what? In high school, I did do a couple MCs of like the rally, you know, like the pep rally, like the guy that went out and

Justin: 1:29

Oh really?

Nik: 1:30

Now that I think about that, like 20 years

Justin: 1:32

That's huge! Damn, for the resume, that's

Nik: 1:36

you're, you're like, you're like episode, I think 70 or something. So I've done this a couple of times. We're getting, we're getting better at it. Yeah, but, But thank you.

Justin: 1:44

Crazy. But Yeah, of course, dude.

Nik: 1:48

hell. Yeah, man. Well, I'm really happy to have you here. I'm excited to dive in and, um, I would love to start off by just really learning a little bit about you and your journey and your story. Like, let's just start off with how long have you been producing and what got you into production? When did this journey begin for you?

Justin: 2:04

So I started making music in high school. You know, I grew up playing classical piano. Um, and when all of my friends were starting to play in bands, Like in middle school, I was like, that looks so fun and so cool, but no one needed classical piano in their like, you know, Red Hot Chili Peppers cover band. And when I found out that you could make music on the computer, I was like, dude, this is, this is crazy. You can turn the keyboard into any sound. And, I had listened to Daft Punk and was, you know, a fan of their music, but began just messing around on Logic. And towards the end of high school, you know, I started going to raves in L. A. and saw DJs and that was kind of the first time where I was able to connect the dots and think, oh, so when I finish a song, maybe that's what I would do. I would DJ it and began DJing. Uh, and I think a really pivotal moment for me was, uh, I had a friend, who was a year younger than me at my high school who was also producing and he started sending his tracks out to DJs and labels. And he ended up getting a song signed to a really cool label. And so I thought, Oh, maybe I should do that too. Put myself out there, send music to DJs and stuff. This is before Instagram.

Nik: 3:35

How long ago was this? Like when was high school for you?

Justin: 3:39

You know, I graduated in 2011 and, you know, Spring of my senior year, I got on this grind of sending out my tracks to all these, you know, labels, and never heard back until my first week of freshman year in college. And I heard back from my favorite record label, my favorite artist, Claude Von Stroke. And he wanted to sign a song I made, and it was the most, like, surreal moment of my entire life, like getting a message from him on SoundCloud. While, you know, just like someone I've watched every YouTube interview, like was just completely enamored by his art and what he was doing. Um, and to then hear back from him and get to join the ranks of like my favorite artists, on this label, Dirty Bird, which is crazy. And I feel like that was the, uh, that was the beginning of my journey. So

Nik: 4:33

Yeah. And I think it's important for people to hear, you know, that was, you said 2011, that's over 13 years ago, right? Like, I think a lot of people are like, Man, I've been doing this for like two years. When am I going to have my, when am I going to blow up, you know, it's like, you know, it takes a little bit of time, you know, it takes a little bit of time to like learn this craft and really build a career for yourself. So I, I love hearing that. And also, you know, Just the importance to of, you know, you started shooting your shot. You're right. Just like, Hey, let me send this out. Let me see who, might be interested in this and, um, and shoot your shot, which I see a lot of people, man, I see so many people just like sitting on great music and not actually like sending it out, like send that shit out to your favorite DJ, send that out to your favorite record label. You got nothing to lose. Right. So, um, you created opportunities for yourself.

Justin: 5:28

I feel like that shooting your shot component is, it's so insanely important, cause, and I feel like it's the hardest part for so many people, cause we can just get lost in perfectionism, being overly critical of ourselves, and, You know, really, it's just you holding yourself back and, it's crazy. I feel like, you know, I think we're in a time where there's so many ways to shoot your shot now where it's, you know, you can just upload something to SoundCloud or post videos on social media, um, or DM your favorite artists directly. So I feel like it's easier logistically and technically, but I think for those reasons that it's, it's really the personal challenge within that can be the most difficult. And I feel that way even myself, uh, you know, around like this album that I'm about to release, like these, these challenges with like our self judgment, it's like going to the gym and you start lifting. Some weights and you get stronger and then you go to heavier weights and then you're back to being a beginner. You know, I feel like it's a lifelong journey grappling with these things. So I feel like wherever people are at, whether they're just beginning or they're over 10 years into their career, you're going to find these moments where you might be questioning what you're doing, questioning the quality of your work or your, sort of like self worth as an artist. And I feel like you just to say, okay. And just shoot your shot and put yourself out there and let go. That's it.

Nik: 7:06

Where, do you see some of that self doubt show up for yourself being, you know, over 10 years into the game and, and, and being established? I love hearing you say that, like, this still happens even, even when you're actually, you know, out there and you're, you know, you're touring and you're having success. Like what comes up for you?

Justin: 7:26

It's so insane to like you're catching me at a moment where I totally feel back in the beginner's chair, you know, like I feel like it's so cool to be feeling like, oh my God, this thing is scary. This thing is vulnerable because throughout my entire musical journey, whenever something is scary or feels vulnerable, it's always, there's always something really rewarding and satisfying on the other side of that. Even just when you can feel scared or intimidated and you don't allow those feelings to stop you, even just by doing the damn thing, it doesn't even matter what happens. I just feel like, I feel like in life there's so many moments where there's something we want to try to do. And we don't even try, because there's a voice in our head that says it's not going to work out, like you're not good enough, that sort of thing. And when we can completely just move past those voices and just give something our best effort and go for it. Um, it's really empowering even whether it's because maybe the thing you wanted happens. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe there's some unintended beautiful thing that ends up happening as a result. So, in terms of what, you asked, you know, what I'm, what I'm, where I'm at currently as of right now, August 23rd, you know, I am about to release this album that. Largely was written three years

Nik: 8:54

Mm.

Justin: 8:55

and it's kind of crazy cause this is, you know, I think for me, albums in general are my little, they've been in my mind sort of a corner of my artistry where I really try to Paint the most, like, authentic picture of myself and put out my most vulnerable music. And, you know, I think the past two albums I've done, I wrote them and released them mostly in a year. Maybe two years. And this one, with it being a bit longer, I feel like I'm experiencing a little bit more of a delay. Almost like a mismatch between where I'm currently at versus the snapshot that was taken when this album was made. And I think whenever you make music, it's a snapshot of a time, inescapably. What you're feeling, what you're inspired by, all these things are almost like captured in the music. And I think this is something that's really important. Just tricky to navigate is like as artists, we are always evolving as people. We're always evolving. We're always growing up, experiencing new things, changing perspectives, et cetera. And I think with when it comes to music, when you have that old snapshot and you've grown up, you can feel this, almost like a dissonance between That picture versus who you are right now. And it's like, I feel like it's very much like a photograph to be like, that's not what I look like though. Like, I don't want people to see that. Cause that's not me right now. That's me in the past. And I think the reality is like, it's still you and you have to just let go. And I think with the photo analogy, I feel like there's so many times where, especially like growing up to being like awkward and insecure about like, You know, just like appearances, like, I remember, you know, there'd be times where like my dad would take my photo and be like, dad, why are you doing this? Like stop. And then like, you know, 10 years later you look back and you're like, oh, that's so cute. Like, well, you know, like awkward middle school photo or whatever. And I just think you got to just let go, put yourself out there and acknowledge that sometimes it can just feel a little weird and that's okay. You know? Does that

Nik: 11:26

No, a hundred percent, because I hear this so often from artists, where, especially when you're dealing with labels, where it's like, I wrote a track, and then it took me like, Three months or four months to Navigate, you know chatting with labels and like, you know having those conversations and now the track got signed But now it doesn't come out for another six months or another nine months and so a lot of times you're putting out a song yeah that you wrote a year ago and then you're like I'm not even making the same music anymore. And so I see a lot of people struggle with that. You're like, Oh, I kind of don't even want to put this out. It doesn't feel like a good reflection of me and my sound and where I'm at. And so it's a very common, it's a very common thing, but I, you know, we are always going to be the most judgmental towards ourselves. You know what I mean? Like we're always going to be the hardest on ourself where it's like, yeah, maybe I don't. Resonate with that song as much anymore. My creative, uh, impulse is pulling in a different direction, but there are probably millions of people out there that are going to love this shit. You know what I mean? That has actually nothing to do with me, I like, I like to see music and art almost as, uh, I always say it's like, these are like your, your children, these are your creative babies that you were called upon to give birth to, you know, like you are, you're the vessel and this creative energy just got to be birthed through you. And I, and I, and also like in the moment, a lot of times just even in one studio session. You might make a song and then be like, Oh, that's like, that's garbage. You know, like that sucks. Like I didn't, I didn't produce something quote unquote good today, but I always say like, yo, even if you have like an ugly baby, you should still love it. You know what I mean? No, one's going to be like, Oh my God. Like, Oh my, my baby is so ugly. Like even, even Ugly babies still get loved by their parents. And I think every artist really gets to just love whatever you make, in whatever stage that that's in, you know, to still like, give it some, you know, give it some real love. Even if maybe I've outgrown this and I'm in a, in a different place, like, yeah, let me really like, be proud of this and love this. Yeah.

Justin: 13:45

but you know, I think the, I feel like what a lot of people grapple with too is, it's like having a kid and one, you're writing a song and you want it to be a huge banger. And then it starts going a certain direction, and it's turning out to be a more, like, emotional, beautiful song. And it's kind of like, I think of the idea as, like, having a kid and being like, You gotta play football! And your kid is like, I wanna do ballet! And you're, you really should just let your kid, you know, find their own journey. And I feel like with each song, you wanna let it be what it wants to be. Because, you know, it's like with the ballet example, it's like, maybe that kid would then be even better at football, you know, like in some, uh, unexpected way, you know? Um, I think the, songs, they all have a life of their own, and I feel like the more detached we can be with just letting them be what they want to be, the better. And there's often just unexpected beauty that comes from that process of just letting go.

Nik: 14:49

Yeah.

Justin: 14:50

It's crazy.

Nik: 14:51

I love that we're digging into this. Kind of common challenge of, of our relationship with our art. You know, I think that that's always going to be there. As you said, we're always going to be evolving and changing and growing and unfolding, and it's a, it's a beautiful process. It's a complicated process. What would you say right now, as you know, you're, you're a full time artist, you're playing shows, you're touring, you're putting out albums. What are some of the other challenges that you come up against at this stage in your career?

Justin: 15:24

I mean, I think where I am currently at, I'd really say like this album has been One of the biggest challenges that I've grappled with musically in a long time, um, it's really ironic because over the past three years I've put out hundreds of songs. Like, I think I put out over a hundred songs In 2021, maybe like I was just releasing so much music. Some stuff was brand new. Some stuff was several years old, but it was just very free with it. And it's so funny to go like literally from that mindset of just like no perfectionism, just like fuck it to then the most perfectionism ever. And a lot of songs in this album are like on version, you know, 40 and that type of thing. And many of the songs. I've tried to like redo and create like a new version and then being like, fuck, I guess I just have to let go and release the original version. give us some context, I feel like, you know, it's, there's all this like interesting, uh, all these interesting parallels between the process I'm experiencing, finishing this album and what the album is about. So it's all kind of on brand, but This album, it's called You Are The One, and it's about when you're in love and love doesn't work out the way you want it to, and grappling with the turbulence emotionally and ultimately trying to find the positivity, the challenges. And the You Are The One name at a glance, it It looks like it could be, uh, an album dedicated to someone that I'm in love with. But at the end of the journey, you realize, like, when it doesn't work out, the thing that you need to still be grounded in is that love for yourself and that focus on yourself because you can't change how someone else feels, but you can always work on yourself often. choose where you focus your energy. And, you know, I think it's, there's a song in this album that I actually released. Yeah. Like three years ago called where's the plur and the, it really is the thesis of the whole album. And it's how am I supposed to love you if you don't even love you? Um, and it's kind of like, if you really don't love yourself, then how, how can you expect to find the right person, you know? So I think, and I think that idea of self love is also, there's there's something, something to it, because it's not just about like, it's not like a narcissistic, arrogant sort of energy, but rather like, you know, we can be so hard on ourselves, so critical of ourselves, and to, you know, forgive ourselves for the areas that we fell short. And I think also to, you know, accountability for the areas that we can improve upon. And I feel like those are a lot of the themes that the songs in the album speak to. It's just interesting because I feel like when it comes to making music, it's so much of the same energy, like being self critical about things. Also, maybe clinging to things that you don't need to cling to, you know, I think sometimes we don't want to learn, we don't wanna step outside of our perspectives. And I feel like that's something I've experienced with this album too, where there was a point where this album had like 30 different genres and, you know, I went to some very close friends and was like, gimme some honest feedback.'cause I feel like I've lost subjectivity. And they were like, this album's all over the place. You have like 80%. club music that's insanely eclectic. But then you have 20 percent like indie, like alternative rock songs and that are like 100 BPM. And it just like, it's so confusing and they were like, what do you want this to be? And I was like, you know, trying to figure it out. And the advice that we ultimately landed on was to focus on it. Just being, about dance music and we'll save the indie stuff for, for the next album. but this idea of like, you know, having to, you know, maybe there's things that I was clinging to that weren't in service of like the thesis of this album and having to be like, you know what, I gotta be open to some change. And sometimes it takes some external guidance to then like help you regain that objectivity and Ultimately, it's all about, as an artist, it's ultimately about how you feel. And I'm so, so grateful for. You know, my friends like Danny Goliger, Benny Bridges, who are longtime collaborators who helped me with a lot of the songs in this album, but then also my girlfriend, Emily, who, has really good taste and intuition. And so yeah, I feel like all these things, whether it's like self help, like trying to get through life and like romantic life or trying to grapple with like, The vulnerability of making music and sharing it with others, they're so similar in my opinion.

Nik: 20:34

you said that you put out a hundred songs in 2021. That's first off, hats off to you. That's impressive. That's wild. seems to be. carefree attitude around that of like, just fucking put it out, which I think is so counterintuitive to the way that a lot of people are releasing music where they're like, I've got the song, and I've got to build the perfect marketing campaign around it. And I've got to give it this huge, huge push. So I'm really curious about, on the one hand, you're just kind of doing whatever the fuck you want, putting out music, uh, a hundred songs a year. What made you decide to then want to put out an album rather than just like keep throwing out tracks like you were?

Justin: 21:19

Yeah, well, it's funny, because I've been sitting on this album for a while. Like, a lot of, like, the skeleton of it was written, like I said, three years ago. Um, but I feel like I just have a split in my artistic identity, When it comes to dance music and club music, songs for DJing, I just really don't feel that much creative stress around what I do. Like, I just feel like it's just dance music. It's just music for DJing and dancing. Like who cares? Like who cares what BPM it is, this or that. There's obviously like, there can be more strategy, but I think especially in 2021, 2020, 2022. Through COVID and the time after, I feel like there was so much time spent not on the dance floor that I just felt like the scene overall felt like in a very free place to just like, do whatever you want. Interestingly enough, I feel like there's actually, I'm really excited about a lot of the developments in the various dance music scenes that I'm inspired by now. But. When it comes to my album music, where I'm singing, I'm writing lyrics. Uh, there's, it's like, it's an album. There's like just this greater artistic pressure. It's really just like how much pressure you put on yourself. Like, that's the only difference. Like, it's so funny. Nothing changes except what's going on internally. And those internal conversations can make everything so not fun and so annoying when you're like, this isn't good enough. This isn't me enough. This isn't where I want to position myself you know, in terms of like marketing and branding and associations. And it's all those thoughts I feel like are so unproductive for good art and an enjoyable creative process. So I just feel like it's so important to catch yourself when those thoughts are coming up and try your best to. You know, Just move past them and not allow them to get your head all jumbled. Does that make

Nik: 23:28

a thousand percent. I mean, this is the headliner mindset podcast. And I think the foundation of, you know, not only success, but fulfillment and happiness in, in life, not just being an artist, but just the, We have this voice going on in our head all the time and uh, sometimes it can be really powerful and affirming. Most of the time it's not though, most of the time it's kind of shitting all over ourselves. Right? So, as a coach, my background is, is, uh, I'm a professionally certified life coach. I've been life coaching people forever. It just so happened pretty much everybody I know are artists and so that's who I specialize in working with. And, and that. mindset, that narrative, that inner dialogue is, um, you know, it can be really brutal in taking this path, you know, it comes with its own sort of set of, um, yeah, just beliefs and narratives that are unique in particular to the artist's path. So, you know, I hundred percent. Understand that it's the large majority of the conversations that I'm having every day with people is like really looking at what is that voice saying? And is it serving you? How can we improve it? How can we catch it and even notice it in the first place? For you, what, what kind of, what kind of tips and advice do you have for somebody who has that loud inner critic going on? Because as we know, it can be the biggest, the biggest, blocker to creativity and really success in any way. So how does one get through that mean little sabotaging voice that can be so loud sometimes? Yeah,

Justin: 25:11

for me, I'm gonna flip it back on you after I answer because I'm curious what your advice is, but Ultimately, you just need to say fuck it and do it. And I think creating as much external accountability can sometimes be really helpful when you are really struggling yourself. Cause like, sometimes you can just like, force yourself, but sometimes you need that date on the calendar. Sometimes you need that other person to help keep you you know, staying positive when you are questioning everything. Sometimes, you know, I think community is really big. Finding people, you know, who can, help you get through it, I think for me is that is the ultimate, you know, thing to fall back on when you, when nothing else is working for yourself. Um, and when it comes to art, I mean, So much great music is not made in isolation by yourself. And, you know, I think for me, it's like, you know, I would do, I had a bunch of, you know, mixing sessions with my friend, Danny, who's a great engineer and half the time we would just be talking about music and just be, you know, like, just like, getting inspired. And, a quarter of the time would be like. him tweaking stuff. And then the other quarter of the time it'd be like me just tweaking stuff, but he's there making sure I'm doing it the way, you know, making sure I'm just doing it like almost like a study buddies. Sometimes I feel like when it's really, when things are really hard, I just feel like you don't need to experience things by yourself. And that's my advice really. Like, and then, and then I think also, Playing tricks within your own head to lower the pressure, like, if I'm starting a song from scratch and I'm feeling a lot of judgment or writer's block, I'll intentionally just go out to like, make the stupidest song, or make the worst song, and then just not give a fuck. Um, I don't know, like, just thinking about how little all of this actually matters, cosmically, like, none of this shit matters, so like, let's just You know, like, like, even the idea of like, Ugh, I'm so bo I'm so bored of this album. I wanna make the next one. To do that, I have to just like, put this one out, or else I'm never gonna be able to move on. So I'd rather just put it out so that I can move on to the next thing. Like, all those little internal things I, think can help. How about you? What's your advice for

Nik: 27:36

I like, I like that last part. And you said something earlier about like, it's just fucking dance music, you know, like we make stuff up in our mind to be so big. Like this song coming out is like, it's so big and it's so important and, and not to like, minimize your art, but it makes me think about where, where I started my career was working at Capitol Records and I was the assistant for one of the big executives there. And we were doing, you know, we're putting out big fucking albums with a lot of money on the line and, and doing some really big stuff. And it was a, it could be a very stressful environment. And I remember that was one thing that, you know, my, my boss would, would have to remind the team. She'd be like, look, you guys, like, we're not saving lives here. We're just putting out records, right? We're not like brain surgeons that have, has like a life on the line. We're literally putting out a fucking album right now. Like, it's not, it's not. It's not life or death and it was like, Oh, cause you know, it just, our brain can get so crazy and it can get so out of control, you know? And so, you know, for, for me, I think there's two things and one you really nailed, which is it's Getting support and connecting with other people. There's like the work to do with other people and there's the work to do with yourself. This is why I'm a coach is because I love being able to be that voice for other people. When we all have our own inner critic, our own voice of self doubt, it's like the little devil on your shoulder. I call it the Gremlin. The Gremlin is just fucking chirping away sometimes. And so to have another voice in your corner can be really, really helpful. That's why I love coaching. I get to be that kind of cheerleader, that powerful voice. And, and to, you know, it's like whatever you feed is going to grow. And so if you keep feeding that voice, if you keep giving it attention, that voice is going to get louder and we can really spiral out, but there's also a positive voice there. We also have our own inner higher self, you know, that's there. And, and it's this kind of internal battle back and forth. So, Feeding that, having external support, having community. I mean, that's one of the coolest things of this year is, is I started doing group coaching, so I have a group coaching program. I have a community. I've got 50 people in a discord that every day they're popping in. We've got a wins channel. We've got a support channel. We've got a feedback on my tracks channel and just seeing everybody support each other. Oh my God, it's been the best thing ever. If you're not in a community of some kind, like go get fucking plugged in because especially as an artist, I think the reason why I do a lot of what I do is because I also, I grew up as an artist, but then I also really got into sports. And so. And I had, I had teammates and I had people that were there next to me that we were working together and, you know, helping each other. A lot of artists don't have that. Especially like you said, you're not in a band, right? You don't have three other, dudes that you're making music with most of the time. You're like, a lot of people are by themselves in their bedroom being a fucking hermit locked in on the computer. And it's like, yeah. That's kind of the most mentally unhealthy thing you actually can do is to isolate yourself so whether it's, a coach, obviously, you know, therapy, just having somebody to talk to if you're having, you know, real, mental health challenges and issues, talking to people, talking to friends, having community, that part of it is so big. The other part of it is like, Really training that voice and, and understanding that the way I describe it is, you know, that's, that's, it's your ego and look at it like a puppy dog is like. If you don't train the puppy, it's going to piss and shit all over your house and tear up your couch. You know what I mean? Like it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna cause some damage, but we can train it. Just recognizing it like that voice. It's just a part of you. It's a part of you. Just like. Your it serves a purpose. Your heart is there to pump blood through your body. Your stomach is there to digest food. The ego, that part of your brain is there. It's there to protect you. It's there to just like, watch out to make sure you don't experience any psychological, emotional or physical pain. It's just like I'm looking out for danger. If I put this track out, I might get rejected. People might make fun of me. So don't do it. Right. So making friends with the learning, Why it's they're starting to develop a relationship with it and like for me, like I'm, I'm a gym guy and so I'm looking at like, okay, if, if I go to the gym an hour a day and I put in this work, I get the results that there's a physical result of that the same way. If you put that work in on yourself of like every day I sit down and I practice gratitude, I practice visualization, I practice affirmations. I do journal writing, I do meditation. Like there's so many tools. That are there that you can literally like train the brain to actually be speaking in a more positive way. Like you got to train it. If you just leave it up to chance, most likely what we're doing is, you know, we're just getting on social media. We're seeing everybody else killing it. There's shit in the news that's telling us it's doom and gloom. You know, there's so much external forces. That are pulling us in, in, in a different direction. So we have to take control and literally like condition and train that internal mental programming to like, be nice to ourselves rather than be mean to ourselves, you know? All right, you guys, if you are looking to get support on your artist journey and want to get plugged into an amazing community, I'm getting ready to launch the next round of the Headliner Mindset group coaching program on Monday, October 7th. This includes eight weeks of video lessons, exercises, and not one, but two group coaching calls every week to really help you level up your mindset. Your energy, your time management, breakthrough creative blocks, figure out your brand, and ultimately get around a bunch of other hungry, badass artists that are getting after their goals. The best part is once you finish those first eight weeks, you are still part of the community. This really is a family that we've built here. So you still get lifetime access to one of those weekly calls plus monthly guest Q and A's that I do with my artists and industry homies. And we also have a private discord that is popping every day. I'm telling you guys, this program is stacked. Now I only take on 10 people at a time for this because I like to keep the groups intimate and make sure that everyone gets attention and support. So it will fill up. Now, if you want to grab one of those spots or just want to get more info, send me a DM on Instagram and you can also check out the link in the show notes, which is nickcherwink. com slash headliner mindset. And that has all the information there. Now, whether it's the headliner mindset community or someone else's, please make sure that you find some dope people to support you on your artist journey. This is such an important piece of the puzzle. And I truly want you to not only succeed, but to also enjoy the ride and be happy and fulfilled along the way. That's what it's all about.

Justin: 34:13

I feel like we have a lot in common. I, you know, what you're doing with your community, fully relate. like so beautiful and Yeah, like with my teaching, I do like the group, the group classes too. And it's just insane because first off, I mean, I've I become friends with the people that I get to meet and be on this adventure with together. And it's just

Nik: 34:34

best.

Justin: 34:35

it's so crazy. I mean, many of my biggest songs the past couple of years have been songs that I made with like friends that I made who were students and then we're like, you know, ended up making music together. Um, So fun. but to see like, you know, people in that community become friends with each other, start labels with each other, start throwing events together, make music together, songs that get signed, you know, um, dude, and it's so weird because dude, like I feel like I started doing these classes maybe like four years ago. And this is like the craziest part. Like, I have students who are now getting booked at festivals and beginning a tour. I, I played a festival, it was actually my first time playing a festival in Europe, in Croatia. And the next week, one of my former students played a sick festival at the same location. And dude, I have an, I have another student who played, Um, I played outside lands last year and she played outside lands this summer and she just got picked up by my agent. So we have the same booking agent and it's just funny because like all these incredible things are happening to so many of my, former students, shout out dusty Dan and Jackie Hollander, who I was just speaking of, but so many others too. It's, it's crazy and to see their success. And then right now. I'm actually taking a little break from teaching to finish up my album and do all these things and it's just so, it's so like, interesting how you can learn so much and grow so much as an artist, but then be back in the beginner's, you know, like, chair, I guess, for, you know, for lack of a better word, and being like, fuck, now can I walk the walk? Can I, can I, you know, do what I'm preaching? You know, it's,

Nik: 36:24

exactly like you said earlier, it's just you're at a different level. It's the same kind of beginners, questioning of like self doubt, what the fuck is going on? But it's because I'm at playing a different level of the video game now, right? I already, I, I, I beat the last couple and that's the thing I think it's important for us to realize is like, yeah. Fear is never gonna go away. Self doubt is never gonna go away. Because, if we are Committed to our growth. We're going to keep putting ourselves in challenging situations. We're going to keep leveling up We're going to keep trying new things and so with that comes Uncertainty imposter syndrome is great. That means you're stepping into a room that you've never fucking been in before hell Yeah, it's either that or you play safe and you play small and you stay in the rooms that you've already been in So Changing our relationship with fear and self doubt and you know, these things that we think are so bad and actually seeing is like, no, this is good. Oh, this is scary. This is uncomfortable. You feel like you're, you know, you're getting stretched right now. Hell yeah, you're going in the right direction. Get excited about that. You know, it's the same thing for me too. I have these moments where I'm like, Oh my God, I've been Invested in my personal development for 15 years and I am sitting here like Spiraling out of control like I have no fuck. You know what I mean? Like I've never done that but I'm like, wait a minute Oh, I'm like, 700 yards ahead of like, you know where I used to be and I'm just I'm just playing a different game Now it's it's it's bigger and it's different and it's also still Just the beginning, you know, so like welcoming the the uncertainty of you know of the whole journey

Justin: 37:59

100%. 100%. And I think like, when you discover the limits of your comfort zone, like where you're actually beginning to feel uncomfortable, I feel like that's the best place to, that's where you real, comfortable. Learning happens where real growing happens. And I feel like I mean that both internally, as well as externally, you know, where, you do something that seems really scary and then you do it and then you realize, wait, I can keep on doing this thing. And I've always wanted to do this. Like I felt the same way five, uh, no, maybe longer, maybe like closer to eight years ago when I started singing at my shows and recording my voice, that was so fricking scary. And like, I would have like, you know, panic attacks around, performing and being like. This is so vulnerable. And then I did it and then it became the single most gratifying aspect of my artistry was like writing songs and saying, and yeah, I mean, I think also like one other thing, I feel like the gym analogy is so useful too, because, for me, I think these will be, this is like my first time releasing music with me singing on it since my last album, which was 2019. So that's like five years. And. You know, I think with that, it's like if you don't go to the gym, you can get

Nik: 39:26

yeah,

Justin: 39:27

In regards to music, it doesn't mean you're starting from scratch, but I just feel like you need to like give yourself that permission for things to feel differently or feel a little rusty. And it's not, it's not a bad thing. You know, you just got to let go and do

Nik: 39:44

brush the cobwebs off a little bit, you know? Um, but, but yeah, you're not, you're not starting from, from ground zero for sure. I know that you're taking a little break from teaching, but I'd love to hear more about, the program that you run. What is it that you help people with when you're teaching and doing your classes?

Justin: 40:01

Yeah, it's so much fun. Um, I do pretty much a month long, boot camp where I teach people how to make music. And the funny thing about it is I, Allow both beginners and advanced producers into the same class. Because I just have this like beginner's mindset approach and there's times where people who are brand new absolutely destroy. And sometimes people who are more experienced it can be more of a challenge for them because there's like maybe things that need to be unlearned and. More things that when you're experienced, you might cling to things that you might not need to. cling on to.

Nik: 40:45

Mm.

Justin: 40:47

basis of the class. Just let's make some music. But the irony is so much of the time spent is really grappling with internal issues. Issues like self judgment, perfectionism, because that's, you know, like making music on a technical level is so easy. But grappling with the self judgment and all these other things can be really, really difficult. And I think it can be difficult to tackle those things. watching a YouTube video on how to use a compressor. So, um, but yeah, everything that I do is group classes. Cause I feel like it's all about the community. It's all about, group accountability, and supporting each other, inspiring each other. And, um, then the past few years I've done, a six month, you know, sort of artists development. Experience with people who do the boot camp and just kind of an opportunity for me to go even deeper. people who are really committed to grinding on their art and, while having the most fun. You know, I feel like for me it's all just about having fun at the end of the day, but you know, wanting to be with people who are like, I love doing this so much. I don't want to stop. I want to keep doing it. But this year, there's been some really interesting, um, Developments within the scene and I've been taking those in, um, I've ended up going to Europe three times in the past four months and going back again in October, potentially again, even before the end of the year. I've been learning so much this year, and I feel like I have a lot, I have a lot to sort of talk about. And just a real quick bullet point, I spent the first half of the year making a lot of music with dubstep producers and artists. And then the second half of the year, being a lot more sort of collaborating and spending a lot more time with, like, European techno, hard groove, Eurodance, trance, kind of artists and that's been really inspiring. And you know, just to sort of frame all of this COVID I think was a time of like, Like, yo, let's explore everything and let's fuck shit up. And I feel like my album has that energy of just like, from drum and bass to like, you know, deep house to gnarly techno to trance, etc. To UKG, I feel like we're coming from this period of time where it was like, let's explore everything and chaos and like, no rules, fuck rules. To now being like, Refocusing and, yeah, like a different, a different sort of energy. And I feel like that's, I've been on that journey, that self discovery journey myself throughout this year. And I feel like I'm finally figuring it out.

Nik: 43:36

think it's really cool to hear that you allow yourself To go off and play and explore and almost like kind of do some research and development. Let me, let me dabble over here and play with some dubstep producers. Let me go to gear up. Let me, you know, really expand yourself, which is one thing I think a lot of artists actually don't give themselves permission to do. I think a lot of people are very focused on like, I got to find my sound and, yeah, maybe to a certain extent. And, and I'd love to kind of ask you about that. But just to point out that maybe before you find your sound, there is a necessary stage of play and experimentation and fuck around and find out and do a little bit of everything that I just think a lot of artists don't actually allow themselves to do. And I'd love to get your perspective because I really like to emphasize this. For anybody that is listening to my podcast that has ever listened to anything that has ever been said on here, please understand there is no one right way to do anything, at all. Everybody that is doing this has done it in a different way. And a lot of people have, you know, climbed the mountaintop from a different fucking trail, right? So let's just, let's just start there. But I'm curious about your perspective and especially because you are coaching artists, let's say in that sort of six month, artist development program. Some people would recommend like, Hey, find your lane. When it comes to putting out tracks, like have some consistency with the style of what you're putting out so that people can kind of get familiar with what your lane is and what your brand is. And then there's another train of thought, which is like, fuck genres, do whatever you want. You know what I mean? I, I'm curious about like where you stand on that.

Justin: 45:18

This is a really, really great question. Um, that I feel like all artists grapple with. I feel like the most important thing to optimize for is very clear in my mind. It is to focus on having fun while making music. If you are not, Having fun making music, you are not going to make your best stuff. If you're not having fun making music, you're gonna want to stop doing it. Cause, if it's not fun, there's really no point. You know, if you're not enjoying the process, like, there's many other things you could be doing with your time that are also not super enjoyable, that are more productive. Like going to the gym. I feel like if you're not having fun making music, I'd rather you like get in better shape or go outside. I feel like I could take that

Nik: 46:10

Even, on that point though, you know, it's like people might look at me, you know, like, Oh Nick, like how do you stay so, um, motivated to go to the gym or whatever. And it's just like, I love going to the gym. Like I don't go to the gym because I have to, I don't go to the gym because I'm trying to get this, this, this. Ultimate physique or be in the best shape of my life. I'm just I fucking love going like it's one of my favorite parts of the day. It's enjoyable. brings me joy, you know So I think that that makes a big difference. I wouldn't go all the time if I didn't love it Yeah,

Justin: 46:40

percent. But yeah, when it comes to making music, optimizing the process that you have fun, I think the ways you optimize the fun is by first off letting go of yourself. Quality, not caring how good or not good something is. The second thing I feel like is just giving yourself total freedom to do whatever the fuck you want to do. If you are in a very chill mode, and you don't want to make club music at all and you want to just make some like hip hop beat or like an ambient song, like do it, like lean into those things. That might be a song on your first album or your next album that like. Dude, like the most, one of the most streamed songs I have on my Spotify, which has like really helped like fund my label in different moments, um, is a track that's the intro of my first album that doesn't have drums. I think it's my most streamed song ever. It's like amazing and I get messages from people who really love it. I've gone to like yoga classes where like the instructor doesn't know I'm there and plays it and I'm like no way That's so cool. It doesn't matter that it's not a house record and it doesn't, no one Was offended by it. It's like it doesn't matter. You know, I never had one person be like, how dare you? As a house or dance producer, put a song in your album with no drums. Like no one cares, You know, so you got to give yourself that complete freedom to make whatever you want in the moment. Because if you don't, you're just not going to have fun and you might miss out on a really cool idea. Even if it's an idea that like, is it's maybe it's not clear what the context is for building your career. So let's shift to like the second part, which is like, what do you do with your music release wise and like the strategy after you've optimized having fun and now you maybe are sitting on maybe an eclectic array of different styles of songs, I feel like early on in your career, I feel like there's always going to be two different approaches for what to do with your music. You can either self release your music or send your music to labels to, have other people release your music. Let's start with that, sending music out to people provides its own filter mechanism. So let's say you're an artist who's like, just starting and you make everything just for fun. Like you're exploring drum and bass, you're exploring techno. If you start sending all your demos out. To various people. There will be a process of like, Oh, these techno DJs are really liking my techno songs. Or like, whoa, I just got a drum and bass song signed. Sometimes you could even get a drum and bass song signed to a house label because they secretly have been wanting to put out some drum and bass. Like, shit like that, I've literally experienced that with, you know, I have like this one friend, uh, former student who got really into UKG and he ended up signing Beautiful bicep inspired UKG songs that are really emotive and lush to dirty bird, which is like known as like a booty shaken tech house label. But if you follow your heart, doors might open that you would never even have imagined. And I think what can then happen is when you put yourself out there, shoot your shots, just keep on following your heart. But. do it is making you happy in the studio and then just being curious. They're like, Oh, I don't know what's going to happen. You can then see what opportunities present themselves and see where the wind carries you and you can decide, Oh, I don't want to be carried in that direction at all. Here's an example that I've experienced a little bit, over the past couple of years. So with one of my students, I made a dubstep song just for fun. Cause I was like. That'd be kind of funny. It ended up getting signed to my favorite record label at the time, called Lobster Theremin, which has since got shut down. But it was like the elite, techno, underground, like experimental, Dance music label in the UK. They started the careers of everyone from like Ross from Friends, DJ Seinfeld, then to people like DJ Heartstring, D Dan, Narcissus, like crazy like trance techno artists. They did X Club, like all these amazing Super cool artists, who do not do dubstep. And yet, here's this label that wants to sign a dubstep song. My very first dubstep song that I'd ever made, a song I made with a student, a homie of mine. The project is called Bayer and Waits. The label ended up getting shut down, but it was like a huge dream come true for both me and my friend, um, who I made this with. Like, Lobster Theramin, we were obsessed with them, and it was almost like, who would have imagined? A year later, John Summit, was down for me to send him some tracks. I sent him like a 20 song playlist of very eclectic tracks from drum and bass to techno to that dubstep song. And out of all the songs, the dubstep song is the one he started playing. Uh, he played it at EDC back to back with some tronics. This record label, Lobster Theremin, had been shut down, and I ended up getting in touch with Dead Beats, um, Zedd's Dead's label, and they ended up signing the song and re releasing it, and, dude, I got to play a bunch of dubstep shows, I got to meet a bunch of dubstep artists, I started experimenting, trying to make more dubstep, and what I learned by doing this and experiencing these opportunities, I feel like I learned that I really do love dubstep, But it's not my, it doesn't feel like my home. It feels like, my friend's house. It feels like a place that I love to visit and that I would love to have a sleepover at, but it doesn't feel like the place that I, feel comfortable waking up every morning and eating three meals a day at. I'd be like, house music and was always my first love. And there, I, I feel like whether it's house and techno, like you just get locked in these hypnotic grooves that I feel like I just love them so much that I feel like I just feel so at home in that world. And, um, I think the way that I've navigated this phenomenon of being blown by the wind, it's like, I feel like sometimes you just got to experience it. Like I think I had a defining moment when I, I DJ'd, I threw a little party at Miami music week and I went back to back with levity and John Casey. And it's kind of funny cause like, I was playing back to back with these amazing artists, and I just was feeling like Huh, I want to be playing more techno right now and I've played the dubstep songs that I liked and but I was like, huh? I just had this feeling of like, oh and then since then I went to Europe a few times And just like hustled some stuff and didn't really have many like real gigs, but just like was hanging out with artists that I'd met online and scrapped together some kind of like renegade shows. And when I was there, I was like, Oh, I want to sneak in some dubstep. And I did, and that felt good. And the balance, it just felt right. And I felt like sometimes you just got to like, put some stuff out there, see where the wind takes you. But then also, You know, just experience it and see how it feels and check in with yourself and be like, Ooh, this feels really inspiring. Ooh, this um, this feels like my heart is craving something else. And that, those things can always change, but that's where I'm at in this moment. Does

Nik: 54:08

yes, I and I hope that I hope that's not just where you're at in this moment. I hope that that's where you stay and I hope that everybody that's listening to this goes back and listen to the last 10 minutes again, because I think you just knocked it out of the park. You're talking about feeling following the feeling, which is. The I'm not gonna say the opposite, but a different place than where we're often where we're getting stuck. We're getting stuck in our head. We're getting stuck with the self doubt and that little gremlin voice. That lives in the mind. Right? And what I hear so much in your story is. You let go of being right or wrong, right? Which just that lives in the mind that it's that, that internal egoic judgment of this is what I should be doing. This is the right way to do things. Right. And getting out of that and really tuning in and tapping into like. What feels good? What feels fun, right? You said, you know, follow the fun. See where that goes. There's a level of openness. There's a level of non attachment that comes with that. And it might be a little scary to step into that. But I just think you are such a great example of someone that's that's following that. Like you said, Oh, like, yeah, I just feel like making some techno right now. I feel like doing this. You also don't have to be attached to it. That's the beautiful thing, right? Like we're saying, we're, we're always evolving and shedding layers and it's like, just, okay, I'm going to just go sleep over at my friend's house. I don't have to live there. You know, I love that. I love that. That metaphor, man. But, um, props to you for having one. I think the courage to do that. But it also it's, it's, it's developing that relationship with yourself of actually being able to tune in and tap in and be like, Oh, what, what feels good? Let me get out of my head. Let me get into my body, into my heart, into my soul, into my gut. What feels fun? What feels juicy? Like. Being able to actually identify where that lives inside of you and how to, you know, I think you really have to get out of your head to get into that other place. And then just like, yeah, have, have the courage to trust it, have the courage to follow it and the courage to, to play an experiment. And as I say, fuck around and find out and, um, and just trust, have faith that it will lead you to some cool places, you know?

Justin: 56:25

100 percent dude, love the way that you were able to like distill all the, the, the jumble that I threw at you. Cause I feel like that was really impressive and, uh, just perfectly put. And, and just to, to piggyback off of that, you know, I would say one of the most inspiring quotes that I ever heard was from Joseph Campbell, who's just like an incredible, academic and historian almost, um, you know, someone who just studied all this mythology and culture and he gleaned so much wisdom from all of it and you know, after studying all of this, like, wisdom from across time and culture and location, his biggest, advice for life was, is to follow your bliss. And when you follow that feeling of what energizes you, what makes you happy, what, gives you that feeling that life is worth living. When you follow that feeling, you will always be rewarded because whatever opportunities present themselves. Thank you. are going to be aligned with that feeling. And you might not be able to understand why it's happening and what's happening, but there's just so much wisdom there. And I think, you know, to connect this all back to the music stuff, you know, I think one of the funniest things is I, I still love dubstep and I still have so much fascination and curiosity about that world and that community and that genre. Here's like something really funny. I made a bunch of songs with Levity this year. I love those guys so much. They're incredible people. They're so talented. I'm a huge fan of their music. We did some projects together and I used, a sound that, we used on a song on a remix of, Ass? Uh, ass, ass, ass, like, the Levity guys, they, um, had this, like, synth bass, like, wub sound, that they, pulled up for that song, and then I, like, ended up taking that preset and messed with it a little bit, and then made, like this UKG meets hard groove track with the dubstep preset. And, um, that song just got signed to one of my favorite light record labels of this moment, which is, uh, Club Heartbroken, which is like one of the coolest labels in Europe right now. And it's, it's run by Marlon Hofstadt and, uh, Malugi or Maluji. I love that dude. I still am not 100 percent sure what the pronunciation of his artist name is. It's ironic because we actually made a song together and I still don't know. His real name is Mateo, which I, I do have confidence in the pronunciation. But anyways, to go from like, like, this is the shit you can't predict, but the amazing things that can happen when you just like have fun and follow your heart. It's like, yeah, I made songs with some dubstep homies and then took something that I learned that I loved and ended up. Using it to get, to, for this amazing song, this amazing, like, moment where now that song is getting signed to, like, an amazing European Eurodance, house techno label. Like, it's just crazy how things can work

Nik: 59:30

And there's no way that your your mind or your intellect or your ego or that calculating part of our brain. Could have created that or predicted that like that's purely just following your bliss I want to wrap it up with a really cool full circle moment Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey is Actually a big part of how I got into what I'm doing now I used to work at icon collective music production school and we taught A class called the art of flow, which is all about how to follow your flow, follow your heart, follow your intuition. I think it was like the last class of that series was a class on the hero's journey. And, um, I, I used to be the music business guy there. I was all about like, I was the business dude, I was the industry dude. And then when I started teaching that class, it started just opening me up way more to the spiritual side of things, the mindset side of things. Like I started to let go a lot more of the business and, became like the, hippie Rick, Rick Rubin guy, you know, instead of like the music business guy. And, um, that was just following the breadcrumbs following, like, where was my passion? Where was my inspiration? Where was that going? Uh, is what led me to start coaching and ultimately is what led me to start this podcast and is literally the reason like why we're here right now is, has been from following my bliss and just following those breadcrumbs. So I really love that you bring up that quote because it was, um, yeah, actually like a very kind of pivotal, piece of my story and one of the chapters there. So,

Justin: 1:01:06

That's so beautiful. Damn, that's crazy. Also, journey. It's so inspiring following your bliss and doing what makes you happy. I think is so important. I think there's one other huge, huge piece for anyone who like really wants to build a career in making music. I feel like you need to. Do two things. You need to follow your bliss and your intuition. And I think also it's really important to not stay isolated in your own bubble either. I think finding community I think is really, really important and that can be online if you're physically removed. But I think wherever it exists physically in person I think is also incredibly useful, even if it's small, even if it's just like one or two other people that you feel really connected with. But I think, that's one of the big things that I've experienced over the past year. You know, I've split my time largely between Boulder, Colorado, where like dubstep, it's like Denver is like the bass music capital of the world. And I feel like I've learned so much by just being immersed in that community. And then the same thing within Europe, you know, I've been a fan of what's happening there. Since I started my career, it's actually my first time in my entire career of just like going there with kind of like an open minded approach or just like trying to hang out with people, learn and, just take in the inspiration just for the fun and the love of it. And, you know, I think something happens when you like go to a place where you can be on the dance floor or see, like, if you want to be a DJ, like, and you haven't been on a dance floor in like 10 years, I think that's going to be really, really tough. Or at least I hope if you're in that situation, like watching YouTube videos of what parties are like and trying to like almost feel that sense of community remotely, which can be done. I feel like dance music is so community driven and the more you can. Understand where community exists and where you feel at home. And sometimes that can take time and trial and error. And you might need to just like explore a bunch and try a bunch of things. But I think that, is really, really valuable. Because, you know, at the end of the day, like it's dance music, people dance together. You know, and there's so much that goes into community, like culturally, like taste wise, things like the way that things evolve, the way that like you know, influences come and go. Um, I think if you are doing, if you're both taking in that, those, that inspiration from. community where you feel at home, where the people you're making friends and people who you feel like, oh, this person is great. And it feels like we understand each other when you're taking in that inspiration, but then also doing your own thing. You know, bliss following where you're being yourself, having taken in that inspiration. It's now in your DNA and then letting go and just having fun again. I think that that duality is so important. And if you just have one, it might be an incomplete picture. If you're just in your own bubble, you might be missing out on some great sort of feedback. And. Inspiration from the communities that are out there. And on the flip side, if you're overly fixated on just community, you might lose yourself in your own identity and that might not be ideal either. and at the end of the day, using that intuition of following your bliss, am I having fun? Am I enjoying this, as the ultimate compass and I feel like that's, uh,

Nik: 1:04:44

a thousand percent, man. You nailed it. with, with duality. Duality is the foundation of, of the work that I do. It's about that balance. It's about, yeah, being in your masculine energy and grinding and, and putting in the, in the hours and having structure and discipline and understanding the business. You, you know, you, you are running a business here and it's about being in your feminine energy. The flow, the dance, the play, right? It's about being, super deep in your laptop, by yourself and, being, you know, that, that gremlin producer sometimes. And it's about being super plugged into the culture and being on the dance floor and remembering why you started this shit in the first place. And, and going out and, and, you know, networking and meeting people. And, I think it's really important to understand where is the pendulum. Usually tipping, you know, because sometimes it's like, Oh, I noticed it for myself. I'm like, Oh, I'm kind of isolating right now. I actually need to go play more. I'm working a little bit too hard. I actually need to go out. And then sometimes I'm like, Oh, I'm having a little bit too much fun. Maybe I need to like get back to work over here. So it's, it's a, it's a dance. Yeah. And, um, it's a beautiful dance to be dancing. So man, I am. So, so inspired, just by you and what you're doing and your philosophy and your worldview and your message and your art, man. You're just, you're a fucking rad dude, Justin. And, uh, I really appreciate you hopping on here, man.

Justin: 1:06:02

Right back at you, Nick. This is such a pleasure, dude. And just like awesome to be speaking with someone who, is, you know, I feel like you obviously have such a gift for understanding the mindset and, you know, being able to. you know, Help people move past their own self judgment as a coach. I feel like that's dude, just such a beautiful thing. And I I feel like I got to take some of that energy in with me. Um, which, you know, you can't get enough of at any stage of the game, you know? So dude, really appreciate you, dude. And, yeah, man, this is awesome. I'm glad we

Nik: 1:06:36

Likewise, brother. Yeah, man. Stay connected and, uh, thanks again.