DAN SUGARMAN (Ice Nine Kills) - Going ALL-IN On Yourself And Your Dreams

Dan Sugarman is the lead guitarist of Ice Nine Kills and has played on some of the world’s biggest stages. But his path has been anything but ordinary...

In this episode, he opens up about his early obsession with music, the challenges of balancing ambition with health, and how he turned setbacks—like a life-changing cancer diagnosis—into fuel for reinvention. We also dive into his passion for mentoring musicians, the power of authenticity in branding, and his personal growth journey with coaching and plant medicine.

Whether you're an artist or someone chasing big dreams, Dan’s insights on resilience and purpose will leave you inspired.

Follow Dan and Ice Nine Kills here:
https://www.instagram.com/dansugarman
https://www.dansugarman.com
https://www.instagram.com/iceninekills

Follow Nik Cherwink here:
https://www.instagram.com/nikcherwink

And visit my site to join the mailing list or book a free coaching call:
https://www.nikcherwink.com

Transcript

Dan Sugarman: 0:00

Like I remember I got my first guitar when I was 13 years old. And I remember telling all of my uncles and aunts that like pitched in to get it for me, I was like, one day I'll have my own signature guitar. And they thought I was fucking insane. And now like about 20 years later, I have my signature guitar, it's that type of like slow burn manifestation that I'm realizing is like one of the biggest things in the music world. Maybe it's art in general, but like, if you're not really willing to eat shit for 10 years, maybe look at having a side gig,

Nik: 0:41

What's up, everybody. Welcome to the Headliner Mindset podcast. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know by now that I am a huge metalhead. And so this episode was so special and exciting for me because I have the guitar player from literally one of my top all time favorite metal bands, Ice Nine Kills. This guy has such an incredible story and truly demonstrates what I call the headliner mindset. You know, it's already hard enough to become a global touring rock star, right? The amount of time and energy that you have to put into making that happen. But he also beat cancer in the process of that. And that's just, one example of the resilience and the mindset that he has. So I'm so excited to share this interview with you guys. This is Dan Sugarman. Dan, what's up brother. Welcome to the show, man. So stoked to have you. Yeah,

Dan Sugarman: 1:34

Fuck yeah, dude. This is, this is awesome, man. I'm glad we're able to connect like this.

Nik: 1:37

I'm so stoked, man. And it's really cool how we got connected. Uh, I'm such a big believer in manifestation and I'm practicing it all the time. I think we're all practicing it all the time, whether we realize it or not. Right. And I, I actually had your manager, the manager for ice nine kills is on my hit list, for like. People that I want to get on the show because what y'all just what you guys have done with the brand in terms of like I Talk a lot about branding and in the heavy metal world in the rock world You guys have just fucking crack the code on how to develop a really good brand and what that's done You know for the band and for the business So I was already like man I got to get the manager on and then Randomly shout out to our boy Sam my friend who's a fellow life coach hits me up and he's like hey like you're A metalhead right like have you ever heard of this band ice nine pills? And I literally just sent him A screenshot of my like Spotify, wrapped and it's like top band. I'm like, bro, this, these guys are like my favorite fucking band. So super cool. To have manifested one of the members of one of my favorite bands onto the show. I'm so fucking pumped

Dan Sugarman: 2:41

Dude, let's go, man. Let's go. Are you talking about Maori? Mike Maori?

Nik: 2:45

yeah, mike maury. Yes.

Dan Sugarman: 2:46

Yes. Yes. I'll put in a word, dude.

Nik: 2:48

Yes, I would

Dan Sugarman: 2:50

in a good

Nik: 2:50

that I want to I want to pick his brain. It's been a really genius just yeah marketing and Business strategy for what you guys have done with the band. So

Dan Sugarman: 2:58

Yeah. And like full fucking disclosure, dude. Like our vocalist, Spencer is just the genius, evil mastermind behind all of the stuff that you see, and we've just managed to put in the dopest people in place. Like, I don't, I'm sure who am I, of course, you know, about the Andrew Carnegie mastermind team, right? It's the idea of like Andrew Carnegie didn't really know much about steel. He just found the people that didn't know about it and then created everything that we know of today. Like every, every big building that was built was because of the steel that he was able to put together. And. Spencer is a fucking genius at putting the right people in the right place and creating teams and Maori and Spencer work hand in hand on absolutely everything. And it's really honestly just incredible to be a part of such like a fast moving force. You know what I mean?

Nik: 3:48

Yeah, and I think that's, it's so cool. It's something that we've talked a bit about on the podcast where, especially for my audience that are electronic music producers, where it's like, it's just you and a laptop and everyone is doing everything by themselves. I can make all the music by myself, but then I also, I'm making all the content by myself. And it can be a very lonely, lone wolf kind of path. Right. But there's that saying that if you want to go, you know, Fast go alone, if you want to go far, go together, and the more and more I'm having conversations with really, really successful people in the game, it's like, yo, you, you gotta have a team, you gotta surround yourself with other people that are good at other things, and put that dream team together, so, not surprised to hear that.

Dan Sugarman: 4:29

dude. It's, it's a matter of like knowing where your specialties lie and then finding someone else that kind of like. Fills those deficiencies you may have, you know, and I think, I think it really, really is helpful when you can get real with yourself and look yourself in the mirror and be like, someone helping me schedule content would be fucking killer or someone helping me film things would be killer, or I'm going to outsource to editing or any of those things. It just becomes so helpful to like, get real with yourself on that stuff.

Nik: 4:54

And I think the challenge for most people that was like a lot of times that means hiring somebody and a lot of people just might not have the budget or might not be willing to invest. I'm kind of in that place where I'm at that point in my business where I'm like, man, I know I need to be like hiring other people, but there's that part of me that either doesn't want to delegate and let go of it or just doesn't want to spend the money straight up. You know, it's like that little resistance to, you know, you got to spend money to make money kind of thing.

Dan Sugarman: 5:18

Yeah, dude. Yeah, you got it. You got to circulate that shit. You know what I mean? It's hard. It's hard when you want to hold on to it. I feel like energetically that creates such like a blockage and so many things, right? Like the second you're willing to open up on one side, the input comes in on the other side. Output and input are like hyper connected. I've always found there's always like a reciprocal return when you kind of like relinquish that control Or even if it's just control on your funds, you know what I mean? Like.

Nik: 5:46

dude, it's, it's

Dan Sugarman: 5:47

It's a struggle.

Nik: 5:48

it's all, just to go a little deep real quick, you know, it is all energy. It's just all energetics, especially with money. Money's, it's not real. It's just fake digital ones and zeros floating through the fucking universe, right? And, and I just had, I've been really diving into the, energetics of money recently. And it a really profound experience where, um, I basically helped somebody out cause they were struggling and they couldn't pay rent and I was like, you know what, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you a thousand dollars right now and it was just like, you know, I could afford it. I was like, cool, I can do that and I even noticed a little bit of the resistance of like, fuck, like, okay, you know, but I was like, no, I'm gonna do the right thing. I'm going to help this person and the following week I've made like eight grand back like the next week and like new clients and people signing up and I was just like, oh, There's something there is like actually let it go. Be willing to invest in yourself, because otherwise we're coming from scarcity. We're living in that tight energy of, uh, I'm holding on so tightly, but when we, when we loosen it up, you'd be surprised at how it comes back, right?

Dan Sugarman: 6:45

It's so true, dude. I mean, like the current of a river, the currency of a river is bouncing off of the river banks, like it's currency and banks constantly. Right. So like the second you damn that shit up and stop it, the whole natural flow, the ecosystem of what's. Naturally wanting to occur just kind of dies out. I feel like the second you kind of like ride that shit, let go, like you just said, it came back eight times. That's insane. Two times would be dope. You know what I mean?

Nik: 7:12

yeah, yeah,

Dan Sugarman: 7:13

it's always like that, man. Like I'm, I'm investing so heavily in my own stuff right now that it's, you know, you're, you're looking at things going out and you're like, that's a lot of fucking zeros, dude. Like,

Nik: 7:23

yeah, yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 7:24

and it's, it's kind of like, I've been saying this since I was like 14. Uh, but it's like, if I'm afraid to invest in myself. Who the fuck else is going to invest in me?

Nik: 7:33

Hmm. Wow.

Dan Sugarman: 7:34

know what I mean?

Nik: 7:35

Yeah, man. Well, look, I, I see why Sam connected us. We're already in the deep end. I

Dan Sugarman: 7:41

Yeah, right, right, right. Big time, dude.

Nik: 7:43

and I would really love to hear a bit about your story. And like, even just that mindset at 14 years old, you were already telling yourself if, you know, I'm not willing to invest in myself, who would be like, you know, like, where did that mindset come from at such a young age?

Dan Sugarman: 8:00

That is a good question, dude. Um, I'm a super fucking committed person. Like whenever I get into something, I throw myself at it fully. You know, at first it was like surfing and skateboarding. And then it was, uh, hockey. Like I was deep into hockey. And then I found music and I gave up the irony is when I was super into skateboarding, I was playing Tony Hawk pro skater and skateboarding. And I was like, if I don't actually go outside, I'm just going to get ripped thumbs and not be able to do fucking anything. So I had to make that choice of like the real world. And then I realized like, I'm not going to be really willing to risk my, my limbs act like literal limbs. I didn't really want to like, injure myself constantly because I saw my friends trying to get like sponsorships and they were just like busting their heads open or breaking arms and shit. And I, you know, maybe, maybe I was an adult in a child's body by being able to like look forward and realize that that wasn't the best investment of my body in time.

Nik: 9:01

yeah,

Dan Sugarman: 9:02

And you have to be in like the 1 percent of the 1 percent to make a huge living doing that shit. So then I went to hockey cause I had like an affinity for that kind of shit. My brother was a sports person and super committed. He's Still holds records in our hometown for like home runs and fastest pitch and all that shit, like 20 years later. I found music and I was all in dude. Like I remember I got my first guitar for my bar mitzvah when I was 13 years old. And it was, it was a Gibson SG. And I thought at the time I thought it was Angus Young's signature guitar. Cause I just didn't know enough about it. And I remember telling all of my uncles and aunts that like pitched in to get it for me, I was like, one day I'll have my own signature guitar. And they thought I was fucking insane. And now like about 20 years later, I have my signature guitar, you know, and it's like, it's, it's that type of like slow burn manifestation that I'm realizing is like one of the biggest things I realized in the music world. Maybe it's art in general, but like, if you're not really willing to eat shit for 10 years,

Nik: 10:00

hmm,

Dan Sugarman: 10:01

maybe look at having a side gig, or maybe look at having this be a hobby until it has like Leap fully into a thing. But I, I was blessed enough to have a really supportive mom and dad. my my dad probably is where like that line came from. If you're not willing to invest in yourself, who else will? He was a super hardworking entrepreneur. And when I was like 13, got the first guitar, when I was like 14, I started realizing how much effort it was going to take to really make something happen. And I was practicing, like, I would say I was playing eight hours a day. True practice, true focus. Practice was probably like. Two, three hours a day, which is still insane. School took a backseat. You know, I, I I was, I was telling my grandma who sadly passed away two years ago, but we had conversations before she passed about how she remembered she and I getting in arguments about me not wanting to go to college. I was like, why would I have a plan B? Like, I already know what plan A1 through A1000 is and all of them is going to have a guitar in my fucking hands.

Nik: 11:00

Hmm.

Dan Sugarman: 11:01

And I, just committed because like, You know, Ron Swanson's got that. If you're not going to whole ass something, don't half ass it.

Nik: 11:08

You know, it's so cool because, just, for everyone listening right now, we are talking to a real life rockstar here. These motherfuckers were out there literally touring with Metallica this last year, alright? It's pretty much as big as it fucking gets. I remember being ten years old, being like, getting introduced to Jimi Hendrix and being like, I wanna be a rockstar, I wanna be like that, like that was my dream, right? And I think there's like Thousands and probably millions of kids out there that are like, have that same dream,

Dan Sugarman: 11:36

Hmm.

Nik: 11:36

but you actually went and did it. And I'm just so curious about that level of all in commitment that you had, right? As opposed to, I think there's so many other people where it's like, they just don't have that, you know? Like, where do you think that comes from?

Dan Sugarman: 11:56

It's a really good question, dude. I think there's some like innate thing in me that probably made me just be like, you know, some kind of fucking tism that made me just be some kind of thing just made me be like, I am doing this forever. No matter what, no matter the outcome. And there was times in my career, dude, were like. Uh, we don't, we don't need to get too heavy on this shit, but my mom got diagnosed with brain cancer on the day that I joined my first band. Like the day I auditioned and got in the band, I got a call that she had a brain tumor and this was like, I was probably 16, no, it was 15 at the time I was 15. I was a sophomore in high school. You know, I was, it was brutal, dude, it was devastating. I remember getting like this great news and then immediately like dropping to my knees and crying and like within an hour of each other. Right. Um, and I've spoken about this with Sam a lot, and this is something that I'm working on. Like the other foot doesn't need to drop, right. You could always have good things happening without something negative inversely occurring. And that's kind of been like a pattern throughout my entire life. Whenever there's some massive, like leap forward, there's always like cock punch right after. And I think that kind of like taught me perseverance and commitment and like sacrifice really, really early on. By the time I was 16, I had joined a band, was I a fucking freshman? I might've been a freshman at 15. I think I was a freshman. And the band was, uh, seniors at the time. And the next year in high school, they were like, dude, you're way more committed than we are to this. We're all going to college, take the band, take the band name, find new band members, do what you want. So I, that entire summer wrote an entire record, a full length record between ages like 15 and 16, found all new band members that were like adults. Right. Like one of the dudes had a van, which was super essential to us being able to go play out and start that like weekend warrior road dog shit that we really, really needed.

Nik: 13:56

and they had that, same level of commitment that you did.

Dan Sugarman: 14:00

They had a van.

Nik: 14:01

Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 14:03

I, yeah, like. It's a mastermind team, right? I needed wheels. No,

Nik: 14:10

Uh huh.

Dan Sugarman: 14:11

there's, there's a part of me that's kidding. The part of me that isn't like at this time, I found the vocalist first, who was the merch guy of my soon to be banned as blood runs black. And he left, he quit being a merch guy to be the vocalist of this band. And he and I kind of like put the band together and figured stuff out together and went all in on investing in like, I think it was like nine grand, eight grand at the time to have actual. Full length record recorded with at the time, one of the best producers in the game, his name is Zach Oren up at castle ultimate studios in Oakland, um, had done a bunch of legendary records, including the band that I was soon to join. Uh, but at this point, dude, it was like a matter of me just finding people that would help me live the dream. You know what I mean? It was like, I, I needed another guitar player. This guy could play the stuff we were doing. He had a family, he had a kid. We had a drummer at the time who was unbelievable. Had a kid, had a full time job working at LAX. Like, you know, we would have to cancel shows the day of, cause he couldn't get out of work type shit. Yeah,

Nik: 15:13

there was this huge movement, I want to say, at least from what I saw, it was like, I don't know, around 2010, everybody started becoming DJs, you know, it was kind of like, It's so hard to depend on four other people, right? But I can sit down by myself and create everything on the laptop. And a lot of people started, you know, kind of moving in that direction. And so it's, uh, yeah, it's just, it's, it's an interesting, I don't know, dynamic to see where, like we were saying a minute ago, you also still need to have the team and you still need to have the people around you. But, um, But yeah, I can just see how much harder it is to find the right combination of people to actually be in a band and make that work,

Dan Sugarman: 15:54

Yeah, dude. It's, it's so hard. I mean, even at the time, like, even though I wasn't doing the DJ thing, I was using, have you heard of guitar pro?

Nik: 16:00

Oh yeah, for sure.

Dan Sugarman: 16:01

So I used guitar pro to write a full length record, right? I wrote all the bass lines, all the guitars, all the drums. Luckily, our drummer spent like a few days before recording and he like learned all of the songs and it's just a fucking machine and nailed it. But I had to record all the guitars, all the bass, I wrote all the lyrics and all the patterns and stuff like that and produce the record. And it was very much like that. It was just being self reliant and learning to like take on a load that would be overwhelming and learning how to kind of like take one bite at a time. until my plate was clean, right? Like that was, that was, really what it was about. And this kind of circles back to what I was saying before about just being super committed and being down to each shit no matter what. Right. Cause, cause I was also obsessed with like technical death metal, dude. Like who the fuck makes money doing that?

Nik: 16:49

Yeah, dude, you gotta love it, bro. you gotta

Dan Sugarman: 16:51

gotta, you gotta really love it. You gotta be down to play for a bunch of like hairy old dudes who are just judging your guitar playing. Right. yeah. And it's like, it's a world of shit, but eventually, the drummer of As Blood Runs Black wanted to manage us. And I was like, holy shit, this is, this is fucking awesome. This is the next step for us. And I didn't really realize at the time that he was kind of like poaching me from my own band.

Nik: 17:19

hmm,

Dan Sugarman: 17:20

So soon after that, soon after we had our record completed, we were Slegel from Metal Blade Records? He's the dude who found like Slayer and shit.

Nik: 17:29

Bro, I almost, I almost worked for them right out of college. I was like, I literally had an interview with them, and I, I, I don't know. I didn't get hired, but I was so into them, for sure. And still am, I mean they put out So many

Dan Sugarman: 17:41

So many dude. They are one of the most iconic record labels in metal. But I got a message from Brian Slagle on my space about wanting to sign my band fallen figure. Unbelievable opportunity lost my shit. And then within that same like timeframe, our drummer, or sorry, our manager, the drummer of his blood runs black was like, look, dude, like we need a guitar player. We're having a comeback. We want to write a record. We think you're the dude. And I got so fucking stressed about making this decision of leaving my own band, my own baby, this opportunity to have my own thing or joining at the time as Blood Runs Black was the biggest band in metal. Like there was, there was no bigger band. Um, it was so stressful for me that I got shingles

Nik: 18:23

wow, yeah,

Dan Sugarman: 18:25

up dude. It was, it was a big, it was a big decision. Mm

Nik: 18:28

there's something in here about being the dude, being the guy though, like you had a certain mindset, a certain energy, a certain skill set as well for them to be like, Hey, we actually, we want you. And I think there's a big lesson in there about like becoming that person, right? Becoming that person that people want on their team, you know, it's not just like making the hit, making the record that people want, but it's like becoming the person that people want to work with, becoming the person that people want to support, you know what I mean? Like there's something really big in that. And I think that really says a lot about just you and just that relentless drive and work ethic that you had. It was like, Yeah. We want this fucking guy in the band.

Dan Sugarman: 19:11

Yeah, it's an it's an interesting thing, dude. Like I've realized more and more over the years that it's like about being the right person in the right place at the right time

Nik: 19:18

Yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 19:19

to be the right person takes a shitload of preparedness and like working on yourself and I realize that it's like being a good hang is almost more important than being a great musician, right? I worked my ass off to be a decent musician, but I was a good hang having a spine. Having integrity and knowing when to say no or speak up for yourself, like commands a certain amount of respect and then being willing to step into a backbone role for the band and do like heavy lifting is also a really big part of it. Right? So I stepped into this new band and immediately was tasked with writing all of the leads, all the solo stuff on this record, because the record was already written. Their guitar player that I was replacing had just stepped out and the vocalist quit as well. So I had to write all of the lyrics for this like huge fucking record. I was 17 years old, something like that. And then immediately just started touring the world, like full time, like all these fucking places. We went to like Russia, Japan, China. We were the first band to play in, Borneo, Malaysia. There was like a chapter in a book about us going there, like crazy, crazy shit. And I just started like, Getting an appetizer of the world's parking lots. You know what I mean? Like, touring is not what people think it is. It's really just like, it's eating fast food and like, getting from one place to the other and like, taking bird bath showers. It's a fucking grind. Um, and you know, it's interesting, dude. Like, I actually just was talking about this recently with a friend. Um, when I was 14, this is around the same time I just told you about it. No, actually I was, I was 15 cause this is the first couple of shows with fallen figure. I was 15. So I was a couple of years into playing guitar, super committed and all this stuff. But it was my first real show with the band we were playing at the alley in Fullerton. I'm just, sorry, I'm having a little flashback of the show. Um, and it was like the first time that we had to sell tickets. We sold a good amount of tickets. We had to like drive an hour and a half out there. So it felt like actually being in a fucking band. tons of people were there and I started freaking out. And I called my dad saying I didn't want to play. I told him I wanted to quit and I didn't want to do this anymore because I was too afraid. And he told me, he was like, if you don't do this, like, you don't know if this is going to be something you want to do. And like, that's ironically one of the few awesome things my dad has done in my life, but it was, it stuck with me really, really heavy, dude. And I'm like, thankful for learning in that moment that it takes pushing yourself past your comfort zone to like reap the benefits or be able to pick those fruits. Yeah. Harvest the fucking goods. Like it was, it was a lot of fear and overcoming for me to get to a point of just like fully committing. And I think after that point, I was like, okay, this is, this is for sure what I want to do. This is for sure what I want to do.

Nik: 22:06

And so, at 17, you joined as Blood Runs Black, started touring, and you were full time artist then, at

Dan Sugarman: 22:15

Full time artist and, you know, going on five month tours and coming home with 200 bucks and being like, I made it. This is.

Nik: 22:22

I'm curious about that, you know, especially in a band, you know, a lot of times you're you know, you're fucking yeah You're not making that much money in a metal band anyways, and you're splitting it between five people and a manager or something Did you have? You know regular jobs along the way as well that you were doing supporting yourself Like what how did you support the hustle, you know on the come up?

Dan Sugarman: 22:41

So kind of around the time where I was having that argument with my grandma about like, I don't have a plan B, like, I don't, I don't fuck with that idea. I do plan a one, a two, a three. I had one job. I worked at a place called deli boys. I was a expediter, which was like a bus boy. I would do some chopping. I would like serve plates. I would get cups of water for people. Like basically I was the bitch for anybody who needed my help at this spot, at deli boys. I did that for one summer to be able to pay for that van. We had to pay payments every month on it as well as our practice space. And I immediately realized, like, I hate this. Like, I'm not cut out for this shit. I'm not cut out for having a boss. I'm not cut out for like jumping to like help people who don't have like the second, the second you're doing that kind of shit, you get seen a little bit differently. Like people don't really have. Respect and it's really fucked up. You know what I mean? Like for me to come and clean your plate and like, not be thanked as just like, Hey dude, like fuck you, bro. Like I, I don't, I don't want to wipe your ass. This is not fun. So I started to realize that that wasn't the game. and I started committing heavily to guitar lessons

Nik: 23:50

Teaching. Yeah, which is something I saw you still do. You're still teaching lessons and stuff. I'm going to have to hit you up after this because I, I, I, I might dabble a little bit. I'm sure I could learn. I would love to learn how to shred, but what do you offer with that? Are you doing one on one? Do you have like programs and courses and stuff? And I'm very

Dan Sugarman: 24:06

Yeah, dude. Yeah. So it's over the years, it's become a really awesome, uh, Outlet for me. It's become a really awesome way to help people and kind of like For lack of better word mold the next generation and like help them be prepared to be the right person in the right place at The right time I've got a lot of students who are got some killer opportunities right now And it's really fucking cool to see that but yeah, dude, it's it's killer to

Nik: 24:30

And how fulfilling is that too? Right? Like I I got into coaching because I was, I taught at a music production school, so I taught music business and taught a creativity course. And like, just like stepping into the teacher role, I, I don't know, to me is just like, it's why I coach now. It's the most fucking fulfilling thing ever. So I was really stoked to see that you're doing that you're teaching as well.'cause I know. You get that same feeling too,

Dan Sugarman: 24:51

Absolutely, man. I would say that's my life and I get to step on stage and do cool shit.

Nik: 24:56

Mm

Dan Sugarman: 24:57

You know what I mean? Like I feel like there's some past life fucking thing where I've just been a teacher all the time. It just feels it feels really comfortable and innate for me. But yeah, dude, I do like private one on ones. I do band coaching. I do mentorships for songwriting. I do group sessions and I'm just now starting a new aspect of, I've been working on this for many years. I'm calling it slipstream. The idea is to have massive ticketed group classes based on very specific things. And every teacher that I bring on is going to have their own lesson lounge. So the first thing I'm going to do is how to write a song like ice nine kills. It's going to be a weekend course where I take you through from like a to Z one zero to 100 on how we write a song. And then. Basically it's going to be like, if you have questions, you come on screen and then you have this awesome, like group think thing where people are going to ask questions that you would never ask and you hear things you didn't know you needed to hear answers to. And then that becomes an awesome evergreen piece of content that I could have other people buy into and get that same content. And then once I have how to write a song, I snag kills. I'm going to hit up my other dudes and bands. How to write a song like Slaughter to Prevail, how to write a song like Bad Omens, so then I'm going to be helping them open up their own lesson lounges, doing their own thing, and I'll be hosting it. And then each one of those band members is going to have their own lesson lounge where they can be like, Yo, every Saturday at this time for two hours, I'm popping in and I'm just answering your questions and teaching a topic that we all get to vote on. So it's going to be like a subscription based thing where you just kind of like tune in and catch something that's going to be awesome. And for me, it's about being able to provide more income streams for all the musicians who are relying on touring. I sort of like birthed this idea during COVID when everything went to shit. And I realized like all these colleges were scrambling to go to online school and it felt like crap, everything feels disconnected, doesn't feel very like personalized, and then amidst that too, like I was doing a couple different pre recorded courses with other companies where you sit in front of like, Eight cameras with a bunch of dudes staring at monitors and you're trying to deliver like powerful lesson content to nobody, right? Knowing there's thousands of people on the other side of the camera. it's just doesn't feel, doesn't feel good, dude. And then you have these giant production costs. I know I'm not giving my best work. Anyone who watches it has a question. They're fucked because it's prerecorded. And I started to realize that like lowering. The standard of what is required is going to make it an easier entry point for everybody. Like, I don't know a single student who's going to be like, this isn't in four K. Like, I'm not going to watch this. Like, where's the lighting? Where's the color correction? Like, it's not what anyone cares about. And to that degree, like just us having this conversation right now, if you sent me this question in an interview, I would have answered in a paragraph. Right. But now that we're talking, there's all this, like Rapport and all this like background that we can dive into. Like that's what a live group lesson is really going to provide

Nik: 27:59

Yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 28:01

avenues for it to go. Yeah, dude. So that's, that's the next, that's the next thing that I'm getting into

Nik: 28:05

I love it and I hope it's getting people to start to think about what are different business models that I can play with what are different income streams that I can use to supplement, maybe the, the little bit of touring that I'm starting to get, you know, there's a lot of different, you know, phases of an artist career where it's like, Yeah. you start touring, but it's like, There's a phase where it's not yet really even enough to, for, for everything to like fully, fully live off of. And I even know artists that are, touring relatively well and regularly, but it's like, okay, we got to still find some other ways to supplement things. And so it's stepping into that teaching and mentoring space, I think, is so rad because, you know, there are a lot of people out there that they're looking for support. They're looking for help. You've you've put your 10, 000 hours in and I was literally talking to a client yesterday and I was like, because he was having a lot of resistance to Kind of like charging for his services. He's doing the same thing, mentoring and stuff. I was like, bro, how long you been doing this? How long you been writing songs? You know, he's like, oh, like 20 years. I'm like, dude, you've been doing it 20 years. You know, like, Yeah. you there, there's a lot of value and wisdom and you basically have a gift. To bring to the world and you're almost like denying your, you're, you're, you're not, you're letting your ego get in the way and not allowing yourself to actually really serve and deliver that gift, you know, and, and not everybody is supposed to be a teacher, you know, and a mentor, but I think for a lot of people, you kind of have that tap on your shoulder and I'm sure there are some people out there that are listening right now that might kind of have that idea in the back of their head or, or, or feel the, the call to it. And. I say answer the calling, you know, and again, not, just because you can make money from it, but like literally being able to help people, And add value and literally like change the course of people's lives. Sometimes it's like, it's a pretty powerful thing. Like, and the return. Of you offering that value of adding value is that yeah, you also can make money from it and that can help you, actually really support yourself as you, get to that next level in your career. So something to consider.

Dan Sugarman: 30:05

Yeah, I've, I've always thought that like success, whether it be like fiscal or attention or like fame or any of that stuff, those are just byproducts of helping more people and connecting with more people.

Nik: 30:19

Thousand percent.

Dan Sugarman: 30:20

And the second that I made that like shift and realizing that that's when things started happening in a bigger way. And like, I've always thought about this too, dude. It's like, what's the difference between like. Like a McDonald's burger and like a steakhouse burger, like they're both burgers, right? It's the location. It's the way it's served to you. It's the quality of the fucking stuff. But at the end of the day, it's still just a burger. And I imagine if McDonald's did some like fucking prank thing where they just like we're serving McDonald's burgers out of a fancy restaurant on like a white porcelain plate, like you'd spend 25 for that,

Nik: 30:55

yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen I've seen that kind of stuff before for

Dan Sugarman: 30:58

Dude, it's, it's just, it's just a matter of like, how do you create value and how do you provide value? And if you can successfully prove that you're helping people, like you said, why would you starve people from that? Why would you disservice your own gift? You know what I mean?

Nik: 31:14

Yeah. So it seems also That you have a lot going on. You're teaching, you're running your courses, you're in a huge fucking band that's playing shows, writing, music. You have your own kind of solo projects. I think you have some other just projects that are not

Dan Sugarman: 31:31

A couple. Yeah.

Nik: 31:32

Yeah. A couple different projects. How do you do it all? How do you have the capacity to do so much? Cause you got your hands in a lot of different things.

Dan Sugarman: 31:42

Yeah. I mean, I was about to grab my coffee and be like, well, but in reality, dude, like. And this is, you know, this is working with Sam has been helping me a lot. It's a matter of like developing more bandwidth for stuff and like leaning into, I need help with this. I need help with this because that frees up more capacity for me to do other things. in reality, like I've been, like you said, the guy that does the thing and then people will be like, Hey, he would be a good to bring in. It's really, really important, for me at this point in my life, as I'm stepping into all these other things that I need to be able to delegate, I need to let go of control. I need to practice trust. I need to practice faith in what I'm doing. You know what I mean? Like right now for my next record that I'm about to release, I just got one of the best mix master engineers in metal to do it. Cost me an arm and a leg. I'm about to have a whole animated movie that goes along with it. That's going to cost me. The other two arms and legs and also a third, a third appendage. Um, and the two that come with it, uh, it's, it's, it's insane, dude. And it's, it's scary. It's terrifying. But I'm realizing that it's like what you just said, like, if you're willing to help a friend out with that thousand bucks, it comes back to eightfold. If I'm willing to show people that I have faith in what I'm doing and I want to provide you an experience, not just like, here's some cool songs, like I want to provide an experience. Um, It takes a lot, man. And this is one of the things that I learned in working with Spencer and ice nine kills is like creating something grandiose, creating something bigger, creating something larger than life, creating some lore and story for people to kind of like really commit to, because, you know, I've already, I've already chosen to call my shit, Dan Sugarman, which was a huge mistake, right? Cause now when I sell shirts, they're wearing my fucking name tag on their chest.

Nik: 33:34

brand, dude. Yeah, back, back, back to the branding. And this is something that we talk about here all the time because it is so important. And, you know, for the, Electronic music artists, listeners, y'all are familiar with Slander. I'm really good friends with Derek from Slander. You know, one of the biggest DJ duos in the fuckin scene. They're headlining, you know, the biggest festivals all over the world. And, we had a really Good long conversation not too long ago and a big part of that conversation that he was talking about was he was like Basically, the reason we are at this level at like the huge level that we're at is we have been taking huge leaps of faith By believing in ourselves so much that we're willing to invest and we're willing to take those risky moves with the intention of knowing, like, we are here to create an experience that everybody's going to remember. We can't just be like everybody else. If we just kind of do the basic shit, then we're going to be a basic artist. We're not going to stand out at all. So he's like, we, triple down on like what we're spending like we spend a fuck ton of money and excision is another great example of that in the in the dubstep world. He's literally has his own festival now, but he spent, you know, 10 years reinvesting every fucking penny he made into the brand and into the brand and just taking these big leaps of faith and, you know, it's a it's a conversation I hear, more and more. And again, just thinking about ice nine kills again, seeing the brand, it's like, Almost every song you guys put out, there's a whole, not just a music video, but like a short film that comes out with it that has like, it's fucking cool, you know? And, and, and when you guys go on stage, I gotta share this story. I saw you guys play here in Austin. I dunno, last summer, two summers ago. And, uh, you guys are coming out with different outfits and costumes and there's like a theatrical performance going

Dan Sugarman: 35:21

It's a

Nik: 35:21

so, it, it's a Broadway show. It's like, if this is not just a normal fucking metal band, sleep tokens a great example too. You know, they created the allure, the, the mystery. It's like, whoa. Like you gotta go see those guys. Cause they're not just five dudes in fucking jeans and a t shirt up there, Right. So, in, in, thinking outside the box, investing in the brand, the story I want to share with you real quick, which is actually really funny, is, uh, I remember going, I went to the Einstein Kill Show, Actually, um, yeah, shout out Mike's dead is my homie. He was actually opening up, for you guys on that, on that, on that tour. He went to the school that I used to teach at, but anyways, I basically went there by myself. Like I was seeing Mike and the guys from the band beforehand, but I was like, all right, I'm going to just, um, I got to see this band. I'm obsessed with this band. And I started off, you know, probably like two thirds of the way back, you know, I'm just like, all right, I'm going to just like, Stand in the back and kind of enjoy the show and and then you know first song comes on I'm like, all right, and I'm like feeling it. I'm like, you know what like there's not enough energy right here I'm gonna get up a little closer I want to I want to get a little bit more, you know where people are moving a little bit And I get up another 10 15 feet by the third song I was in the pit with my shirt off fucking pushing people like it literally I had no choice. It consumed me I was like, I'm you know, I'm almost 40 years old. I'm like, I'm just gonna fucking chill I'm the old dude in the back Bro, I didn't even make it, 10 minutes into the set. I was in the fucking pit going crazy, like, you guys, it was such a good show. But, you guys are doing something, you know, not only is the music amazing, but you guys are doing something different up there as well, which is, um, there's something to be said for that, man. There's a reason why, the band is at, where it's at.

Dan Sugarman: 36:55

Yeah, dude. We, uh, we definitely like inviting people into the splash zone. For

Nik: 36:59

Ha ha, yeah,

Dan Sugarman: 37:00

It's, it's, it's, it's, a big part, the spatter zone. You're going to get blood spatter on you for sure. There's, there's a lot about this man. Like I'm a huge, student of, just entrepreneurship of marketing of all this stuff. And I've been preaching this for ages to my students, the purple cow, you know, about that idea of the Seth

Nik: 37:17

yeah, Seth Godin, yeah,

Dan Sugarman: 37:18

Yeah, dude. Like if you can do something to stand out, to be remembered, it's going to go the distance. Like there's so many people who are blending in. Like just saying the word metal bands, like doesn't really mean much, but like we're a horror Broadway metal band. And all of a sudden you're like, what the fuck are those three

Nik: 37:37

yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah

Dan Sugarman: 37:39

And right off the bat, it stands out. You know what I mean?

Nik: 37:42

Yeah, and just that concept of the purple cow for the listeners that aren't familiar with it I believe the idea is basically like if you're driving down the street and you saw a purple cow in a Field like you're gonna stop the fucking car and get out and go look at the purple cow,

Dan Sugarman: 37:55

And tell everybody about it.

Nik: 37:56

Yeah, you create something that's gonna turn heads, you know, and that's where the that's where the branding really comes in for artists, I think, is, you know, what are you doing that's different? you can do it with the music, you know, but that's like, I think it's harder. It's harder to do it. I think with the music, it's you got to really be that next level innovator, but The brand, I don't want to say it's easier. It's still the million dollar question. how do you separate yourself and create something unique and different, but I think a lot of it really boils down to courage, just like being courageous enough to do something different and, and stand out, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it takes some risks, right? A lot of people are just scared and kind of naturally, I think we just sort of play it safe.

Dan Sugarman: 38:33

I think, a lot of people tend to ride coattails of success and they try to like get a foot in the door on what somebody else has done. And I think it, it works. It does work sometimes, but it's very safe. And I feel like the people with staying power are willing to like risk it all. You know what I mean? And like, like I've always said this to, uh, this is a fucking Jeff Bezos quote. I call him Jeff pesos cause he's just the fucking money man. but it's brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room.

Nik: 39:01

hmm. Yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 39:01

And it's the idea of like, like, yeah, your music is going to make people feel something at absolutely will. Right. And you can affect what they feel with the imagery, with the colors that you use, with the way that your lyrics happen, the merge, the music videos, like all of this stuff, just go to support what the music is saying. And I think there's something really important to be said about like finding a way to get people to talk about you so that they have something to say when you're not in the room. Being a conversation point is like really what I'm, what I'm getting at.

Nik: 39:30

Totally, and there's a way of also doing it authentically. It's not like being different just for the sake of being different because you're trying to sell yourself, but it's like, I have a feeling, like, Spencer from Einstein Kills really actually fucks with horror movies. And he's like, I love this shit! Like, he's into it, right? So It's very authentic. It's authentic. It's real. It's like, and so finding that thing, like what's that thing about you that you fucking love so much that you're passionate about? Not like, Oh, how can I change myself to be different? But you are one out of 8 billion people in the fucking world. There is something about you and your taste and your style and where you come from. That's like, that makes you, you. And so rather than looking outside of yourself at, well, what's everybody else doing? Look inside of yourself of like, what do I want to do? What lights me up? What would be cool? How can we make it fucking cool and show that, you know, that's. That's the

Dan Sugarman: 40:18

Yes. Yeah, dude. That authenticity of like, if I was on the other side of the barricade, what would I want to hear? What would I want to see? Like fuck the expectations of what you think people want. Like feed your younger self with what you're making with the art you create. And I think that always goes further. And it also feels good at the end of the day. Cause that goes back to like the integrity and spine thing. Like, I feel like so many people can sense inauthenticity. So many people can sense that, like, try hard energy, you

Nik: 40:46

Totally. Yeah, dude, you can feel it a million miles away.

Dan Sugarman: 40:49

easy.

Nik: 40:50

Now we've talked about our mutual friend, Sam, a little bit, and I really would love to hear a bit about. What had you hire him as a coach? Being a coach myself. I so wholeheartedly believe in the power of coaching and there's a lot of different ways that that can look. But what had you hire Sam as a coach and what's the kind of stuff that you guys work on together?

Dan Sugarman: 41:15

Yeah, dude. So I saw a video of Sam on Instagram at the exact right time. Um, I had just gone through having thyroid cancer. It was really fucking gnarly. Like you say, like, it's, it's so hard, dude. Like when someone's like, Hey dude, it was so cool seeing you at this ice nine show. And I'm just like, thanks man. In the back of my head, I'm like, I'm not going to ruin your stoke because I wasn't there.

Nik: 41:41

Hmm.

Dan Sugarman: 41:42

I've been sitting out for three years, dude.

Nik: 41:43

Oh, oh shit. Okay.

Dan Sugarman: 41:45

been in all the music videos, I've been making all the fucking music, um,

Nik: 41:49

So you haven't been touring, though?

Dan Sugarman: 41:51

Yep, I haven't been touring for three years.

Nik: 41:53

Oh, damn. Because of thyroid cancer.

Dan Sugarman: 41:55

Because of thyroid

Nik: 41:56

Fuck, bro.

Dan Sugarman: 41:57

but I'm, I'm 1, 000 percent in the clear. Uh, this is, this is like, Yeah. Other foot dropping. I mentioned this before, right? Here's all these fucking awesome things. And then I'm going to get kicked in the nuts 10 times harder. And then hopefully the, so I was having the contract come through for that year to this, this is how Iceline operates. We signed a contract, the touring contract every year. And I had mine come through for the next year of touring with Metallica. And I had been dealing with some weird thyroid stuff. Like my girlfriend is, she's a fucking clairvoyant, which she like feels. Every she's like predicting what people are going to like name their kids, like when their birthday is going to be like crazy shit like this. She was having like weeks of just like touching her neck and being freaked out and was having me like palpate her thyroid to make sure she was okay. And then one day she was like, could I touch yours? And it was fucking huge. The next day I was basically at the doctor and they were like, buddy, you need a fucking biopsy.

Nik: 42:54

Wow. And you weren't feeling any, you know,

Dan Sugarman: 42:58

I was I was I was having a hard time breathing, but my girlfriend was bringing her dog that I'm very allergic over at the house all the time. And I was just like, Oh yeah, I'm definitely just feeling allergies. You're like, this is normal. It wasn't allergies. It was thyroid cancer. Um, yeah. So I, I, you know, pushed through like my trachea was being collapsed by a tumor on my neck. It was, it was fucking gnarly. Yeah. it was, it was, it was very heavy. Um, So as I'm like, I just got the biopsy and the contract comes through, and as I'm getting ready to sign it, I get the call from my doctor. He's like, bro, you have, you have thyroid cancer. We need to get this handled immediately. So I called the whole team, let them know that I couldn't do it, uh, brought some of my good friends in to fill in for me. That's probably who you saw. but it's been It's been a fucking blessing in disguise, man. I'm not even going to pretend like it's not been the best thing ever. Like I've been able to focus on all these other things in my life. I've been able to focus on my health. I've been able to focus on my wellness, fitness, my businesses, all these things, circling back though, Sam. So at this time, like right after I had my surgery and was coming out of it, I then found out my house that I was living at had insane black mold,

Nik: 44:12

shit.

Dan Sugarman: 44:13

like insane levels of black mold. And I immediately had to move out. And I was like, again, just getting hit with more shit. I had to move out real quick. I was in like a three month battle with my landlord. I was staying at an Airbnb, which was like supposed to be covered by my landlord and he backed out after a week. So I was paying out the ass for a place to live for months. And that's when I started working with Sam. Cause I saw he had a video of. How he basically healed himself of throat cancer. No, he had tongue cancer. How he healed himself of tongue cancer with some plant medicine.

Nik: 44:46

Mm

Dan Sugarman: 44:47

And I just reached out to him. I was like, Hey dude, like I'm in this place right now in my life where I truly feel like I know there's more to what's going on. I feel like there's something about, you know, my throat being my throat chakra, which is your place of expression. I felt like there's so many things that happened. You know, during COVID that like, you're not supposed to say, you're not supposed to talk about amidst, having a really gnarly breakup during COVID. And then I found my new girlfriend who's been fucking incredible. There's just so much like pent up stuff in there that I felt like was toxic. And I felt like I needed to find a place to express that safely as well with, with someone that was going to be able to help me through all those, like deeper. caverns of what the fuck is going on and how to like work through that. And Sam was monumental and that like, we, we immediately got to work on that stuff. Um, and ironically, what's the time? Is it about hours from now in a week? I will be doing my second ayahuasca ceremony, which is going to be massive. Super, super stoked about that,

Nik: 45:52

dude. Powerful stuff.

Dan Sugarman: 45:54

So powerful. So powerful. I did it on November 1st. About two months ago now, and it was just like, I knew exactly what I've been doing wrong. I knew exactly what I needed to do.

Nik: 46:04

Tell me about, tell me about that, man. I've done Ayahuasca once. It's been, I think, four or five years ago. I have felt, for a while now, I've really felt called to come back. I'd love to do it once a year, you know what I mean? Like, I'm so curious about what that experience was like for you and what came up through it. I know it's hard to describe. I know it's hard to put into words, but in a nutshell, yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 46:27

about, like, the 3D aspects. Obviously, there's this whole, like, 5D, you know, like, seeing, like, fractals and people morphing into, like, creatures and the odd, like, all the, all the

Nik: 46:37

shot, I shot to the center of the earth like a fucking cannon, you know, and then went and saw my, my chest open up and got to see my third chakra pulsating and, you know, there's that side of it.

Dan Sugarman: 46:50

Yeah. Yeah. But the, as far as like the, the immediate takeaways, um, you know, it was, it was, it was super, super fucking powerful, man. Like, uh, this group that I do it with, they're fucking incredible. Very in depth knowledge, very, very connected. Everything is super clean and pure and high quality. It was the first night. And I was invited to go onto the healing mat. Like there's like a couple of the facilitators do like Reiki energy work, craniosacral, and I'm sitting there absolutely like blasted off, you know what I mean? Just in another dimension beyond another dimension. and I sit down and the shaman starts just like, I didn't really tell any of them my traumas, my griefs, my issues. Right. And immediately the shaman starts just like, because he's an incredible musician, he starts improvising a song about like forgiving your father. And that's like, that's like one of my biggest fucking things, right? And he's just channeling exactly what I needed to hear. And then this other lady started doing Reiki on me and she starts saying like, we miss her, we love her. She's with us now. My mom passed away eight years ago and she's channeling my mom while my dad's being channeled here. And my body wanted to cry, but I started laughing hysterically.

Nik: 48:11

Huh.

Dan Sugarman: 48:11

Like hysterical, like loud as fuck laughing, right? And it continued for the next, like, seven hours where I was just like non stop laughing. And afterwards, when you finish up the ceremony around like 3 a. m. And you like go and you're like, everyone's having like soup and just like trying to come back to life. I'm talking to one of the facilitators who is incredible at craniosacral, incredible coach and healer. And I asked him about that. I was like, dude, like I felt like I was supposed to cry, but I started laughing and he looks at me and goes, that means you get the joke.

Nik: 48:43

Hmm.

Dan Sugarman: 48:46

a kid doesn't understand what's going on, they'll cry, but when they get the joke, they'll laugh.

Nik: 48:51

Wow.

Dan Sugarman: 48:52

And it just dawned on me in that moment that like, I had like moved past. All of my hangups. I moved past all of my hurdles and I was on the other side of like understanding the humor that is this universe.

Nik: 49:05

Wow.

Dan Sugarman: 49:06

And it was just so fucking profound, dude. It was so fucking profound.

Nik: 49:10

Yeah. Yeah,

Dan Sugarman: 49:11

Bunch of other stuff too, but that was that was like massive.

Nik: 49:15

I love that, man. I really love hearing that. It's funny cause, uh, I just ran into somebody the other day, a very, very, like, High level, powerful person in the personal transformation space. They run like this map, you know, some massive community. And, it was my first time meeting them and I was just asking them. I'm like, man, I, at your level, like they're at this like top dog level. I'm like, what kind of training do you do? You know, it's like, I'll go to the weekend workshop, but this guy runs the weekend workshop. I'm like, what do you do? And he's like, he's like, yeah, man, to be honest, he's like, we do ayahuasca. plant medicine has been like the huge part in the continuation of the growth. And, um, it just hit me. I was like, man, I'm like, yeah, that. Gets to be a part of my journey again, you know, you can read so many books, you can do the podcast, you can take the courses or whatever, but it's like, there's that, that spiritual growth that, it's just a different level and it can completely like reorganizes every, you know, cell in your body and, um, hearing you, you know, that was literally like, Oh, two weeks ago, less than two weeks ago. And so hearing you bring this up right now, for me, that's always how it works is it's like, oh, it just starts popping up and it's, it's, you know, mama Gaia talking to you saying, Hey, it's, it's, it's your time, it's your time. So I'm, I'm receiving that calling and, um, Yeah, for me, I had a big breakthrough around my, it was a lot of stuff around my dad as well in my ceremony and that introduced me to the whole world of men's work, which is actually, I think, probably how I know Sam as well. Just that whole really, really deep and powerful path of, exploring the, yeah, just the, the masculine journey. And especially when we have, you know, uh, yeah, maybe not the best relationship with our father is it's a, it's, there's a lot of really powerful healing to be done around that. And I definitely can thank like Iowaska for starting that journey for me. It's been hugely, hugely transformational. So Yeah, man, we get, we get to go back. You said, you said you already have, another ceremony, um,

Dan Sugarman: 51:14

as Yeah. like literally next week today.

Nik: 51:17

Good for you, bro. Good

Dan Sugarman: 51:18

Yeah, dude, it's, it's, it's fucking incredible, man. I'm super, super, lucky. Uh, where I was living, the place that had mold, uh, this British dude moved next door to me and like immediately we hit it off and we were hanging out like every day and he's one of the facilitators at this ayahuasca ceremony and for two and a half years was just like slowly chipping away at my concerns and my worries. And he helped me through. My cancer stuff. He was driving me to like doctor's appointments and just like pointing at like little things about what I would say in my beliefs, one of my best fucking friends, dude. And he's sadly moving back to the UK at the end of this month. And this opportunity to go do the ceremony and Joshua tree came up and I'm like, dude, that's my favorite place in the world. I've been trying to get me and my girlfriend to go on a vacation there. I guess I'm going to go, I'm going to go, to the moon and Joshua tree. Um,

Nik: 52:08

Joshua Tree is incredibly spiritual. There's really, really powerful energy out there. It's like, yeah, yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 52:15

something something about like being in the desert where like time is so different like you'll have a three inch cactus That's been alive for like 40 years. You know what I mean? It's just like like you learn so much from that shit and just like ayahuasca in my humble Beginning understanding like for me. It really just like helps you move past stuff because of like it it's An inner knowing, right? Like I, I question everything. Like Sam all the time. I'll say some shit. I'm like, yeah, yeah. But like, why, how, what, when. Right. And there's this aspect of like, I have a feeling that a lot of artists are very, um, they need to make the choice. Like if you're told to do something, you might do it. But if you make the choice to do it, you're going to fucking do it. Right. I feel like ayahuasca kind of removes those barriers and it just allows you to just like move past things. At blazing speed at light speed and it like clears the debris. It clears the path and it helps you see yourself through a mirror that you didn't really know existed. And like, there's so much like discussion about the integration work that comes afterwards.

Nik: 53:20

Yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 53:21

And personally, dude, I felt like I just walked out a different person and just was able to find new things to add to how I view the world, right? Like there's this fucking fire going on, right? Right now in LA, um, the other day I was meditating. I went to the beach, was meditating for about 30 minutes, and then I looked to my right and Malibu's on fire. It wasn't on fire 30 minutes prior. And I'm sitting there and I'm going, holy shit. And then I look in front of me and there's a pod of like 50 dolphins playing with seals, right? And I'm going, holy shit, this is the universe giving me like two options of what to focus on right now. I could focus on like play and beauty and like. nutrients because they're for sure feasting on some fish or I could focus on destruction and devastation. And then in the next day I went down to the beach to meditate and it came to me that like fire is an incredible force of destruction, but it's also a bringer of life, right? Like it will burn out a whole grass field to create a serious amount of nutrients for the next generation and dormant seeds in the earth will bloom because of that. And then on top of that, like, all these, all these hills are filled with fucking sage, dude. Like, you're literally saging California right now. And I'm not gonna sit here and like, toxic positivity

Nik: 54:41

Yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 54:42

out of something. Like, this is devastating, but

Nik: 54:43

Yeah,

Dan Sugarman: 54:45

I feel like there's something beautiful inside of this. You know what I mean? And I don't know what's to come, but I feel good about all of this. And it's like, to me, these are things that are coming from my time. You With ayahuasca. It's like this new perspective that I have where it's like, yeah, I could choose to see things like that. But like, also, how quick can I come back to neutral? How quick can I come out of a negative and back to neutral and then choose a positive outcome and then just like lean into that? And it's been massive, dude.

Nik: 55:13

Beautiful, bro. Beautiful. Yeah. I, I talk a lot about duality and it's kind of the foundation of my entire really coaching practice, you know, is we're living in an experience of duality. Like Yeah. Yeah. The duality of life and death like we're alive and part of being alive is that there's also death they go together right there is destruction and there's creation they both totally exist and we might feel pulled to only like the good stuff but we don't get the good stuff without the bad and there's a little bit of this, you know, just acceptance where yeah, there's a lot of beauty when we see the whole thing. The whole big picture right and and and you know so true as well of like yeah What are we choosing to focus on what's fucked up in this world is always going to be available It's always going to be available and what's incredibly beautiful is always going to be available to and you know I think it is part of our as people that are on a conscious path to start becoming more aware and more conscious of like, where is our focus going? Where is our energy going? Because whatever you feed is going to grow. And a lot of people are only focusing on all the fucked up shit. And it's like, well, that's going to create a very different experience of life for you. You know?

Dan Sugarman: 56:24

Yeah, yeah, dude. It's like on the small timeline. It's really, really easy to get consumed in negative stuff. But like, how pissed were the dinosaurs to die? You know, but like, holy shit, if they didn't, like, would we be here at all? Right? Like when you zoom out, like you don't know anything. And I think constantly existing in that, like, maybe state, like, maybe it's good. Maybe it's bad. It helps you kind of like create room and bandwidth and capacity for like more beautiful shit to come through. And I feel like that's been one of the biggest aspects of just circling this back of like my career of finding a way to, you know, we, we, we bypassed a bunch of shit. Um, I left as blood runs black to after touring with them for seven years and writing two records with them. I left that band to be my mom's caregiver for the last, she was supposed to die about four months after I left the band. And I found this. It was called Rick Simpson oil. It's like a cannabis distillate. And I started giving that to my mom and her tumor shrunk 45 percent

Nik: 57:23

wow,

Dan Sugarman: 57:24

she lived another two and a half years. And it was, it was incredible, dude. It was fucking incredible. Had that not happened, nothing would be what it is. Right. And then I moved to tech. I moved to Austin, Texas. I lived where you're living. I was living there for three years in round rock.

Nik: 57:39

oh cool,

Dan Sugarman: 57:40

started a music education company that I went all in with, with a dude who wound up effectively being a scam artist. we were working on it really heavily, but I was doing most of the heavy lifting, most of the funding. We worked on it really, really heavy. And then I went on a family vacation and came back and the house was emptied. All the gear that we had purchased together, he stole and moved out.

Nik: 58:01

no way,

Dan Sugarman: 58:02

It was absolutely insane. And I was left with fucking jack shit. I was left with nothing, dude. And like not to get. Really fucking deep here, but this is another one of those, like, if you want to hit a plus ten in life, you need to hit a negative ten first so you can get that momentum. was at the point where I'd like that was money that I inherited from my mom passing away and I invested in all this stuff and all of it was gone for for what? Right. And I was at this point of like looking for how to end it. I was googling how to end it all right. And in that search, I stumbled on Wim Hof breathing

Nik: 58:35

mm,

Dan Sugarman: 58:36

and the next day I committed to trying it. And then a day after that I pulled myself out of out of that loop. Like it was done. There was there was like six months of I couldn't leave my house without blacking out because I had so much anxiety and so much depression and all of a sudden it was just like lifted and within a few weeks of that got contacted to join ice nine kills through an accidental manifestation practice that I did. I was visualizing like points in my life where I felt the most powerful, the most comfortable, the most me, the most at peace. And it was always me on stage in different places, right? And then all of a sudden what comes through is an opportunity to be in a metal band again. And it was, they were, they were in a place where their career was just fucking blooming, right? Like they had just released one of the, what was to be one of their first big records, the silver scream. And that was like, that took me to here minus like, you know, the, the cancer shit, all that stuff. Um, but it's just that, like that pendulum shit, right? Like I, you got to slingshot backwards to slingshot forwards.

Nik: 59:36

this is something that A concept I was introduced to relatively recently from my mentor and my coach, who's also Sam's coach and mentor, Preston. If you know Preston Smiles, um, for anyone listening right now, if you haven't listened to the episode I did with Preston, go watch that on YouTube. Really, really incredible. If you're, resonating with any of the stuff that me and Dan are talking about right now, it's really, really good. But he, Was talking about range, this idea of range that, you know, our ability to feel. Whereas most of us are operating on a, on a, out of a scale of one to 10, a lot of us are at maybe like a four or a five, and I think I'm one of them. I'm like, oh, you know, I, don't really allow myself to get. Too upset. I don't really like allow myself to really feel really heavy negative feelings But then I also don't really allow myself to feel Incredibly blissful, you know, and so There's something about having range right of like no, I actually can go And into the deepest darkest nastiest corners of the human experience and I can allow myself to go there I can actually fucking feel all of that And then what that does also is it allows me to have more range to feel the amazing beauty and the bliss and the joy and everything that comes with that. But a lot of us are kind of living in this sort of lukewarm middle area where it's like, yeah, we don't, it's, we don't feel that bad, but we also don't feel that great. And so I know that's part of my journey right now is like learning how to feel more like I want to feel, let me actually fucking feel things. You know, I live in my head a lot, you know, I'm very mental and a lot of, a lot of us do like we're living in our head. But how much do we actually live in our feelings and in our body? And it is through our life experiences as well. Like having those, you know, kind of horrible, shitty life experiences, but also getting to have the fucking amazing life experiences as well.

Dan Sugarman: 1:01:25

Absolutely, dude. It's that, that one plus one equals three shit. Like your head plus your heart creates an entirely new life, right? And I, I've had this like vision come to me more and more and more, and I'm starting to understand how to apply it. But it's like an atom is a proton. An electron and a neutron, right? We have the positive, the negative, and the neutron is the neutral. The thing that holds space for the other two things to exist. God really. Right. And I'm recognizing that like by allowing ourselves to exist as a positive or a negative, it's not like, don't feel bad things, don't feel good things for too long. It's how soon can you swing back to neutral to create space for both things to exist again?

Nik: 1:02:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which means we actually have to feel whatever's there. You know, we try to resist. I don't want to feel bad. And so the resistance, you know, what you resist persists, right? We do whatever we can to numb or distract or to not actually really feel it, but like, yeah, actually allowing yourself to, you know, the metaphor a lot of people use a lot or the, I don't know, the example people use is like when, uh, antelope is getting chased by a cheetah and it's like it the cheetah like almost gets it and grabs it by the neck But then somehow it slips and it gets away and there's that moment where it's like it just went through crazy trauma But then it allows itself to just like shakes it

Dan Sugarman: 1:02:45

Shakes it off.

Nik: 1:02:46

it's just like, okay It's like I actually am allowing myself to to feel everything to move and to shake and to be embodied in that But then I let it go and a lot of us are like we're staying, you know We're just resisting actually feeling everything that it stays in our little kids and animals, they do it so much better than, than adults, you know. A little kid will allow themselves to actually just have the fucking tantrum. You know, there's a lot we can learn from those and, uh, yeah. But, anyways, a big rabbit hole we can go down around all of that, man.

Dan Sugarman: 1:03:15

Easy.

Nik: 1:03:16

One more question I want to ask is How do you think your experience doing ayahuasca has influenced you as an artist?

Dan Sugarman: 1:03:28

It's interesting, dude. Um, it's only been two months since I last did it. Right. So I'm gonna like, even in talking with Sam, like this opportunity came up, he was like, bro, you're ready. Like go hit it again. Like you're, you're ready for the accelerator. You know? Um, I've only worked on, it's not true because I'm producing a few bands. I only worked on one of my own songs since Ayahuasca. I've worked on countless songs with other bands. I feel like what's happening is I'm more on instinct. I would say working from the heart a bit more than the head. Right? Like I'm able to just like immediately Suss out where, uh, a deficit is in the song and then I'm able to immediately express the way that it needs to be expressed, how to fill that void. And it's been an incredible application, honestly, so far. Like I feel, I feel more in my body might be the best way to say it. Yeah.

Nik: 1:04:29

I'm gathering is, uh, for anyone out there that might be a little blocked, that might be struggling. Go do some breath work, do some Wim Hof, do some ayahuasca, do some plant medicine, visualize, right, visualize the future that you want. Honestly, all that shit really works, man, and it's cool to, it's cool to meet somebody that is, uh, that's doing that, you know. It's funny, it's like, that's why I came to Austin, was to, you know, Really go deep into the coaching community. And so those are kind of the those are the people I hang with out here It's like the ones that are really in that Transformational space and I left behind the the real LA music industry kind of nightclub, Seen that I was a part of but I think that's there's a really cool space where it all I think gets to enter Intersect and I'm just excited to see more and more artists that are like realizing that like, Hey, I'm going to have more success in my career. I'm going to make better music. I'm going to have less energetic blocks when I do some of this transformational work, you know, when I do some of the spiritual work, when I allow myself to, to yeah, get a little curious and like, see what's out there. There's so many tools and so many modalities and it's just, um, it's cool to see that you're doing that, man.

Dan Sugarman: 1:05:37

Oh, dude, it's, it's fucking huge, dude. Like even just the word spirit comes from the Latin word speed, a, which means breathe, right? Conspire means to breathe together. Inspire means to breathe in. All of this stuff to me is like something that we are born to do. And as artists and creatives, I feel like it's important for us to tap into, like I said earlier, like the most authentic version of what you can do, because that is like, You were brought to this place to sing your fucking note and to the choir of the universe so that we could all make some fucking harmony, you know what I mean?

Nik: 1:06:12

Let's

Dan Sugarman: 1:06:12

And it's, it's so fucking easy to get consumed and like, you know, if someone's singing next to you and they're kind of off, like you might modulate yourself to sound good with them, but then you're fucking up your own thing. Right? So like going based off of your own internal compass and finding what makes the most sense to you and leaning into you more double down, triple down. That stuff is going to make you go so much further than following any handbook that would be handed to you from anybody else. but even to that degree, cause as I'm saying this, we're both coaches, we're both mentors reach out, ask for help when you need it. There's always going to be someone who's one step ahead of you that wants to point pitfalls to you. He wants to point out things that you could do to elevate it, but always just know that like, it's you who did the work and it's you, who's going to bring you to the next level.

Nik: 1:06:59

Yeah. Beautiful, bro. Beautiful. That is such a mic drop moment. Like, tune into your own authentic frequency. I always say it's like we all have our own tuning, like a radio tuner. There's a certain, certain, like, frequency that you gotta find what yours is. And once you lock in, like, you can really do it. Your station, but like if you're tuned, if you're like, Oh, I'm trying to listen to this station. Cause that's what everyone else is listening to. It's like, no, that's not you. Tune yourself in and you know, easier said than done. It's a process and it's a journey and it's a lot of, you know, yeah. Inward reflection and work, but it is work that's worth doing for sure.

Dan Sugarman: 1:07:34

Yeah, dude. Yeah, absolutely. the Focus of like, what are you consuming, which creates the output that you have? Like it's all, it's all really, really important stuff. And I feel like this journey that we're all on is such a fucking gift. Right. And, and anything that we could do to make this journey more fun for ourselves or for others is like what we're here to do, like that's the humor, that's the humor of the universe.

Nik: 1:07:59

yeah, yeah, the cosmic joke right there. Yeah, bro. We take shit so seriously Like I think that's something I get to play with play with more is it's like oh like will we get up? We get so fucking serious. It's like what if none of this is serious What if like all of this is just a game and like we're we're supposed to just play? Play and there's actually we're actually really inherently invincible, you know what I mean? Like what what if you know, like what if we're like when we die, we just wake up and we're like, whoa That was yeah, like we're just like with our little alien buddies on some other planet. We're like that was fucking crazy

Dan Sugarman: 1:08:28

Right. We take off our VR goggles. We take them off. We're like,

Nik: 1:08:31

Yeah, yeah, dude like what if man like let's let's let's approach life like that like we all get so fucking serious and It's not healthy, you know, it literally causes you just stress and anxiety and I would like to call that in for myself more

Dan Sugarman: 1:08:45

yeah, dude. Innocent, innocent play. Yeah, dude. That's where it's all at, dude. Like when I'm, when I'm coaching people in the songwriting shit, that's what it's all about. It's like, remember when you got your first like toy truck, remember how fucking cool that was every day? Remember? Like you would just like find something new to do with it no matter what, right? Why do we look at stuff that we? No, as something that we've like, like, I look at my guitar every time I pick it up, like I've never seen it before. And anytime a note comes out of it, I'm like, what the fuck was that? And that like excited, innocent play is what leads to something incredible. And I think like, that's the channel. When you tune into that, like more stuff wants to come through you. And the more you can clean your channel, the more you could like tap into that frequency you were talking about, the more you become an FM station that other people want to tune into.

Nik: 1:09:33

Dude, cleaning your channel. That's, that's it right there. What are you consuming? You know, what are, what are you eating? Are you treating your physical energy the right way? Like this is a big thing I talk about in my program is back to what you were saying, we're all just atoms and frequency. And so when you can raise yourself to the highest frequency by cleaning out your channel, it's just like, all right, treat your body well, like put good food and, you know, Get good sleep and like, you know, like don't treat your body like shit, but your mind as well. Like, what are you consuming? What are you watching every day? You know, there's so much garbage out there.

Dan Sugarman: 1:10:03

Mm hmm.

Nik: 1:10:04

with? All right there is such a way to almost like purify ourselves like we know what's good for us and we know what's not and it's like the more we Can raise that vibrational frequency. It's like you just have access man Like you just start getting those fucking downloads every day man manifesting cool shit every day Like it really works and That's where the work is to do. That's the work I really love helping people with. It's like, yo, let's get that vessel clean, you

Dan Sugarman: 1:10:29

Yeah, straight up, man. Like I have this, this visual all the time that I'm seeing is just like, if the universe, if God, if source, if whatever it is, is light. We are We're like a mirror for stuff to like move through. If that shit is dirty, we're going to be refracting. Mm hmm. We're going to be dissipating. We're going to be dimming that light. But if you clean that glass, if you clean that mirror, that light will shine through you exactly as it was delivered to you. And I feel like that is kind of like each of our individual purposes. That's what I feel like is my purpose as like a teacher and a mentor and a coach, so much of what I do with my students is like talking about that kind of shit, like getting them to tap into their heart and get out of their hands and get out of their head. Like You were just saying, like all the stuff you're consuming, What about the thoughts that are banging around up in there, like like cleaning that shit up, cleaning out the inner voice, training the inner voice, like it's, it's no different than a bicep, you know?

Nik: 1:11:25

dude, one of my favorite books and practices is doing morning pages coming from the artist's way. I don't know if

Dan Sugarman: 1:11:31

Yep, yep, absolutely.

Nik: 1:11:34

daily, like every day, just write down or night or at any time. But just like write three pages of thoughts, you know,

Dan Sugarman: 1:11:40

Mm hmm.

Nik: 1:11:40

it morning pages, just getting that brain dump. There's so much clutter. There's so much like. clunky, you know, thoughts that don't really serve us and just get them out. One of the best ways to get them out is to just write them down. And like, that's like a constant daily purging and purification that all of a sudden you're like, Oh my God, literally like my thoughts are just better because I'm getting all the bad ones out every day.

Dan Sugarman: 1:12:01

Absolutely, dude. I love that stuff, man. I love that shit. Dude, I literally, we could talk forever,

Nik: 1:12:06

yeah.

Dan Sugarman: 1:12:09

sense both of us trying to wrap up and then we're like, Wait, there's one more little rabbit hole. Fuck

Nik: 1:12:14

we'll do we'll do another one man next

Dan Sugarman: 1:12:16

Yeah, let's do

Nik: 1:12:17

you make it out to austin We'll do an in person one and we'll pick up where we left off But we're gonna just we're gonna leave you guys there. Thank you all for tuning in this week dan Thank you so much for hopping on brother like I said, man, it's this is so rad to not only just be a huge fan of you and, and the band and the music that you're making with ice nine kills, but to like, just see where you're at on your journey, just spiritually, mentally, like you are such a, a true authentic artist. And those are my favorite kind. So it's great to connect with you, bro.

Dan Sugarman: 1:12:46

it's been a fucking honor, dude. Thank you so much for having me. And I can't wait for round two.

Nik: 1:12:50

Hell yeah.