Headliner Mindset
The Headliner Mindset podcast explores what it truly takes to succeed as an artist in the EDM industry. Through interviews with some of the biggest DJs, artists and professionals in the game, we dig into not only the business strategies for success but also how to navigate the mental, emotional and spiritual aspects of the artist journey. For more info, go to www.nikcherwink.com.
Headliner Mindset
ARTA MAJD (Music Attorney) - How To Negotiate Better Deals
Arta Majd is an entertainment attorney who has worked with labels, independent artists and industry professionals to protect their rights, negotiate better deals, and avoid the common pitfalls that ruin careers. In this episode, he breaks down the biggest mistakes artists make when signing contracts, why legal knowledge is just as important as branding and marketing, and when you should bring a lawyer onto your team.
We also dive into the realities of the music business—how deals are structured, the hidden clauses that can lock you in for years, and how to navigate negotiations like a pro. Whether you’re an up-and-coming artist or already deep in the industry, this episode is a must-listen if you want to protect your future and take full control of your career.
Follow and connect with Arta here:
https://www.artamajd.com
https://www.instagram.com/artamajdesq
Follow Nik Cherwink here:
https://www.instagram.com/nikcherwink
And visit my site to join the mailing list or book a free coaching call:
https://www.nikcherwink.com
when people get way too stoked on a deal, they might get all jazzed on all these, like, marketing campaigns and then the deal gets sent and then there's nothing about it in there. And then, you know, the label might be like, yeah, yeah, of course we're going to market it. It's in our best interest to, but then I'm like, well, if you're actually promising this, then why don't we put this in whether it's a minimum 2, 000 spend or a minimum 250, 000 spend, whatever it may be. I'm like, if you are committing at least this much, let's put it in the deal then,
Nik:What's up everybody. Welcome to the headliner mindset podcast. Today's guest is a music business attorney who used to be the head of business. business and legal affairs at Steve Aoki's record label, Dimmock. He now runs his own practice, helping both emerging and established artists navigate the complicated world of negotiating legal contracts, making sure everyone knows what they are signing and are getting a fair deal. This is Arta Maj. My man, welcome to the show. I'm so stoked to have you because you are our very first lawyer that we've had on the headliner mindset podcast. So welcome. Thank you for being here.
Arta:I am honored. Thank you for having me. Honestly, this this means a lot. Wow. That's really cool. Okay, that's great to know Yeah, no, i'm so happy to be here. I appreciate the opportunity Um, i'm really excited. So thank you.
Nik:Yeah, you know, it's, it's about time. Like I've talked to so many artists, we've talked to labels, we've talked to managers, but the lawyer is a very, very important player on the team. And it's somebody that not everybody has. It's kind of like a, a part of the team that, um, a lot of people don't really add until a bit later, you know? but we also hear all of these horror stories of like, Young artists kind of getting fucked over because they're signing contracts that they don't really know what they mean. So I'm really excited to dive into this episode with you where we can, you know, unpack, some contract stuff, get into some of the nitty gritty of like the music business and the lawyer side of things. but before we get there, I just want to hear a little bit about your background. Tell me about your history in the music industry and how you ended up becoming a lawyer.
Arta:So I was always into music like from a young age and as I got older I feel like there was a lot of like family pressure right to do Something that is you know, I guess professional right like i'm persian. There's like this running joke where they're like, if you're a Persian kid of immigrant parents, you have three life paths. You can either be a doctor, a lawyer, or the family failure, right? And so I always told myself from a young age. I was like, man, that's so stupid. Like I want to be in the arts. I want to be doing creative stuff. Like I don't want to be sitting in an office. It's so dry and boring. But like as I got older and I saw like kind of the reality of the music industry and it's a beautiful thing. I love the music industry. It's great. But it really takes a toll on you. And it really takes a lot, whether it's the recording or the touring, all the different things and all the different people, the coming and going. Um, and I was like, you know, I'm, I'm Bit of a homebody and I really like reading and writing and so I was like what if I can just help people Do what they want to do but still get my creative outlet because I I mean as you can see the stuff is not just collecting dust I still get to have fun and make music and I still get to Um be creative like to me writing lyrics is like writing a contract so when I was Thinking about all of this and I was like, you know what I think I want to be a music lawyer Like I didn't go into law school Not knowing what my path is going to be from like before I even applied I was like, I want to be a music lawyer And then I uh, I got into it. I wanted to sign up for all the music related classes And then my my second year I actually went and I interned at dimmock. So steve aoki's label and it was kind of ridiculous because when I showed up dude, there's like people they're dressed like, you know We are they're like t shirts and hats and hanging out. I went in in a suit like full suit a little briefcase and I went in there and I was like these guys there's no way They're gonna hire me like this is like what am I doing? And then they hit me back and they were like, hey, so can you start and I was like, uh, yeah, of course You Um, and so, so, yeah, so that ended up, you know, being the beginning of, like, actually getting into the industry, not just saying I'm going to be a music lawyer. And then I was there for a while. I kind of like work my way up from like intern to legal assistant to becoming a part of like business and legal affairs to actually heading up business and legal affairs. And then after my time there, I ended up just continuing, you know, I ended up getting really busy and having a lot of clients. So now that I was like, established into the industry, I was like, I'm going to go focus more on my own firm. Um, and so that's what I do now. And I cover, um, Pretty much everything. Like if it's, if you're a brand new artist, you're starting out. I want to talk to you. If you're already like super established or top 10 DJ, I want to talk to you. So it's, it's a really fun thing and I feel like I still get to be creative within the contract. So, um, that's kind of the, the, the short version. Yeah.
Nik:I love that you came in with a suit and you still got the job. Even though, you know, they could have made that decision. Maybe this isn't a cultural fit. Because that was the experience that I had. I somehow, right out of college, got a fucking interview with like, my dream label, which we were talking about before the show started, metal blade records, like
Arta:Oh dude. There we go. Yes.
Nik:legendary, record label that put out like every album from every one of my favorite bands somehow managed to like find on Craigslist they were hiring. And I was like fresh out of college where they teach you like, wear a tie to your interview. And so I go into the label wearing, you know, button up in a tie and everything. And it was like, it was so awkward. Cause I was like literally the perfect person for the job, but then coming in there, similarly, everyone's just a bunch of tatted metal heads. And I'm like, Oh fuck. Like, what am I doing?
Arta:Like the career development office did not prepare me for this.
Nik:yeah. Ended up not getting the job. So moral of the story, first lesson of the episode, if you are applying for a job out there in the music industry, or really anywhere, like, know what the culture is, right? Maybe you don't need to go in with a suit and tie, right? We're kind of taught that, but that's not always
Arta:least ask someone right in this day. I feel like there's there's no excuse Like you can't just dm somebody be like, hey, I saw you work at demo. That's so cool. Like, you know What's it like there? What do you guys wear? Like what you know, what's what's something like do some don'ts like if someone asked me that They were applying for the job. I would love to share with them. I'd be like, yeah, this is what you do Don't do what I did Still worked somehow. I don't know why but
Nik:safe to say if it's a music industry job, 99 percent not going to want to come in in a full fucking suit and tie. So, uh, but uh, that's so awesome, man. What a, what a cool journey. Obviously, Dim Mock is such a, a legendary brand, a legendary label. Um, you must have worked with Brian Linares over there, good
Arta:yeah, I saw yeah.
Nik:Yeah, I did a, I did a, Yeah, I did an episode with Brian. He used to, used to really help run Dimmock for a long time as well. Really cool episode. You guys can go back and check out Brian Linares from Dimmock. But I'm curious right now as, cause I really want to get into record contracts specifically with you. because there's so many artists that that's going to be one of the first things that they're faced with everybody, especially, you know, as you're coming up, you're probably aiming to get signed. On one of your favorite record labels and then that day is gonna happen where maybe it's not your favorite label But like a label it wants to sign you and it's really fucking exciting like hell Yeah, you know i'm gonna put out a track got my first record contract let's like spend some time picking apart a typical, you know, like single deal and what are some of the common terms that people should be familiar with, like When they're going through a contract and considering, you know, what to sign. Cause I think, I think the problem is most young artists are going to get the contract. They're going to be so fucking excited about it that they're going to be like, I can't believe I got a contract and they're, they're just going to sign whatever was given to them and not even, not even try to negotiate anything. Right. And so, Let's, let's help educate. Like, what are some things that you could probably come back and, and, you know, push back on and say, Hey, let's change X, Y, and Z. What are some of those things that people want to look out for?
Arta:First thing I want to say is it can actually get to be a pretty long list. So I want to start with that. And like, that's part of why I've become more active on social media, right? I'm trying to put out. I'm putting out more videos so that people can kind of see because there's a, it's kind of a very long list, but, um,
Nik:is so great. I got to dig through your Instagram and just like watch a handful of your videos and you guys go follow Arda. His shit is so, so good. Really, really good advice on there. So definitely someone you want to be following.
Arta:Appreciate you. Thank you. But yeah, I'd say one of the biggest things is when you're talking about like exclusivity. I mean, like, I mean, I'm just trying to think about a contract from the top down, right? Like, one of the things that they talk about a lot of things is like term and exclusivity, like, how long is the deal going to go on for and how long are you going to be exclusive for? And a lot of times people just get so excited. Like you said, it's so accurate. People get so excited by the fact that it's just a record deal that they don't care. They'll just sign it and they'll be in. But I'm like, well, you know, If you're delivering like 12 tracks and it's like dragging out for a really long time You could be missing other opportunities at other labels At that same time because you might think it's a great look for you to be like having other singles here and there other collabs The label could shut it down if you're tied into like an exclusive deal, right? So one way to counteract that is with step outs So let's say you're exclusive to a label for 12 months or 24 months or whatever
Nik:Is that, is that a common, is that a common thing that you see is that labels are asking artists to be exclusive to them for a certain amount of time?
Arta:I feel like it's like loosened up as of like recent, but from like, I mean, I've seen some of the like famous, uh, music related lawsuits are exactly about that where you have like an artist that has to deliver like five albums or seven albums or whatever. And until they make these deliveries, they can't go anywhere else or do anything else. And the label might want them to fit a certain sound or fit a certain look. And the artist is like, look, like, I'm tired of this. Like, I want to try doing this or I want to try releasing elsewhere. So like one of the ways to fight that is like when you, when you ask for the step outs and you're like, Hey, like in that, let's say I do have to give you, Five tracks 12 tracks, whatever let's say for example in a 12 month period I want to have the freedom to drop like two singles on outside labels or just independent release during that time So in that way you have a little bit of flexibility, you know because like one of the scariest things in general with with Record deals. I feel like it's just getting tied down for too much and for too long that's a broad statement But I feel like that's something that some people don't realize the implications of when they actually sign up
Nik:So exclusivity is really the word that we're looking out for, right? Exclusivity meaning that like, okay, you have to exclusively release with us. Right, now what I've seen in contracts is usually options. Can you talk about, like, what's an option? What does that mean? Um, you know, I think a lot of the listeners are getting, hit with probably, maybe let's just say it's a single, you know, they're signing a single to a label. But that single contract might also include options. That's usually what I've seen before. What does that mean?
Arta:So an option just means that they it's it's like a deal extension and most often the way it's presented It's going to be at the label's discretion So let's say you sign let's say you have a single deal with three options You sign the single with the label it comes out. It's doing phenomenal The label loves it people love it. And then the label is like, all right We're going to exercise option one for another single So now they're, they exercise that right to just turn this one song contract into like a two song contract. Let's say that song does really well. They extend again. They exercise the option. And then let's say that that one flops. The other two have kind of like, you know, fallen off a little bit. They might be like, you know what? We're not going to exercise the fourth option. We can let you out of your deal. But like, generally speaking, like, it's like, if you're doing well, they're probably going to want to keep you around more. If it's not going well, or like, let's say the relationships really like bumpy, they might at that point just choose, but yeah, we're not going to exercise the option. Back to being free.
Nik:Got it. So how would it work if I had a single deal and there was an option clause on it, and then, let's say I presented the song to them. Hey, here's the next song I'm going to put out. And they're like, yeah, we don't really like that song. Would I be able to go release that song on my own or be able to go release that song with a different label?
Arta:Great question and honestly, there's so many different scenarios that can play out from that. Like they might ask you to get to revise that track. We like actually, you know, let's just try tweaking some things. They might ask you to send in a different track. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you can just go real. I mean, if it's something that you negotiate for in the deal, like you could, there's something called like first look where they might say, you send everything to us first. Once we pass, then that becomes a step out. So now you can go release it on a third party label as long as you're not like stepping on our toes and getting too close to our release dates. So it's something that can that can happen. But again, a lot of the deals might just have that first part. You have to send us everything, but not the second, like, Oh yeah. And then you can go release it elsewhere. So again, these are things that is worth asking for, you know, negotiating it. So you're not stuck.
Nik:So really, it really comes down to the wording. This is where you have to be like really meticulous about what's actually being said in the contract.
Arta:One of the craziest things that I've come across is for, I've been doing this for years. Most deals that I have seen do not have a release date or a release window. There's so many times people are so stoked to sign to label and they're like, yeah, cool. Let's do it Let's do it. Even if it is 12 tracks or 24 tracks or five options And then they don't think about, I'm like, dude, you got to put like a six months from now. They got it. I'll be out or six months from delivery that I'd be out or 12 months. Or if you're dead set on release dates, like you've got your whole year planned out. You might be like, hey, it's got to be December 12th or else. Right. most deals I've seen don't have that. I would say that's a huge thing to be aware of. And if you don't have the set dates, at least ask for that window.
Nik:Yeah. Great point. Because when a label is the one giving the contract, The first draft template that they give you is always going to be in their favor. It's in their favor to not have to have the pressure to have a deadline on the release. But this is something that I see on the artist end all the time. One of the big complaints is, okay, I made this song and then It took me three months to actually get it signed or four months to get it signed. And then it took them another six months or another nine months to put, to put it out. By the time that song comes out, you wrote it a year and a half ago. You wrote it two years ago, the song's coming out and you're like, I don't even sound like that anymore. This that's not even the shit that I'm making anymore. And so a lot of artists come into that trap where they're like, dude, I'm actually not even excited about this song because that whole process has taken so long. So I'm really glad that you bring that up. That was something that I did as a manager. We would always put like a 90 day clause in there of like, okay, cool. From whenever we signed this contract, this song has to come out within 90 days. And, um, and that was always something that we negotiated. I forget what we, what do you call that? I don't, I don't remember what we called it back then.
Arta:I
Nik:like a real, just like a
Arta:just release date or release window. I would say release window Like, you know, it has to be, you can set it up, whatever works for your, you know, for each individual deal. Um, but yeah, it's almost like a safety net, you know, if I was going to call it not exactly what it's called, say, it's a safety net. Make sure you have some kind of safety net built in so that, you're not stuck pushing it out and pushing it because there's two scenarios that can happen that are bad. One is just that they keep dragging it out. The song still comes out. But two, I mean, I don't know if this happens as much anymore, but I mean, like we I've heard horror stories of this even before I was a music attorney where labels would have like competition. So they would sign a competing artist and then they don't even have an intention to really push the artist or get them big. They just want to take the competition off the table. So that every time they get a master, they just be like, yeah, we have more notes. We have more notes and they just keep dragging out so that their superstar can blow up without somebody else getting in the way.
Nik:Yeah, yeah. It's like, technically, once you sign the song, they own, you know, and I think it's good for people to understand, like, what are you actually signing when you sign a record contract? Right? Like, what is it that you're signing over, You're really signing ownership of that master recording over to the label. You don't own it anymore. Right? Really? It's like they, they own the master. They own the master. They own the record. Once you sign it over, if you don't have a release clause, they can technically also not even put the song out. That song could actually never come out and they own it. And there's nothing that you can do about it. You can't put it out cause they own it now. All
Arta:the thing. Like they might pay you and then you've given them a song, right? Contracts, general rule, like there has to be something for something, right? But that, that, that's exactly like the tricky part right there. It's like, well, yeah, we paid you. We wanted the song. Where does it say that we have to put it out? Or where does it say we have to put it out while it's relevant? So.
Nik:let's talk about getting paid because I think that's something that a lot of artists don't think about and I'd be curious as somebody who's seeing a lot of record contracts come across your desk. On the kind of entry level, perhaps when people are signing tracks, they're just excited to even be signing it excited to even be associated with that label. But at some point to the, you know, for a lot of labels, one, I don't think a lot of labels are even worth signing if they're, if they're kind of smaller, it's like if all they're going to do is put it up on Spotify and not really. Actually push it. You can do that yourself, The whole point of signing with the labels that they're going to actually give it some proper marketing. So I'm curious about like, what kind of budgets are you seeing? Like, are you seeing labels actually pay and either give an artist in advance or are they guaranteeing a certain amount of marketing budget in these contracts? Like. Are you seeing that that often? And what might that look like for, let's say, a DJ that's signing a single to, to a label? Are they actually getting money from labels is what I'm curious about.
Arta:Some definitely are. There's a, there's definitely a phrase that a lot of lawyers use. They say it depends a lot. And I don't want to want that to be my first response, but the truth is, it depends. Because I mean, I've seen a good chunk of deals to where there's it's just royalty based, right? Where like, you're not getting any money up front. but. But to your point, these are things to watch out for like one, if you are getting advanced, sometimes an advanced seems really amazing until you realize that it says it's due after everything's turned in. So if you happen to pay, you know, vocalists or producers or for studio time or all this stuff, and then they're not going to pay you until it's like done, dusted and turned in. I mean, well, that might be kind of tough for someone who's not on tour and they might need to pay rent next month. You know what I mean? And the month after.
Nik:you're paying for all of those costs out of your pocket up front, and then basically the labels paying you back later.
Arta:Yeah. and so and the other thing too advances are just more or less I mean Fee if someone says we're giving you a fee like i've seen vocalists sometimes they'll be like I want this lump amount It's not recoupable. That's a fee you're getting paid that you don't have to pay it back but advances which are more common They are getting paid back through royalties anyway it's almost like you're getting like an interest free loan in that sense. Right? but again, the setup can make a big difference. So, 1, it's like, if you even have the advance in the 1st place, and then 2, if you have it, what's the payment schedule like? You know, like, is, is it going to get paid at the end or can you be like, Hey, I want half of it now and I want half of it at the end. So I have something right now, whether it is studio time or you're going, you know, paying rent or just life expenses and then marketing funds too. That's another thing I've seen that sadly, like, when people get way too stoked on a deal, the, they might get all jazzed on all these, like, marketing campaigns and then the deal gets sent and then there's nothing about it in there. And then, you know, the label might be like, yeah, yeah, of course we're going to market it. It's in our best interest to, but then I'm like, well, if you're actually promising this, then why don't we put this in whether it's a minimum 2, 000 spend or a minimum 250, 000 spend, whatever it may be. I'm like, if you are committing at least this much, let's put it in the deal then,
Nik:Do you find, them willing to, to put their, literally put their money where their mouth is? Or do you get pushback on that?
Arta:I've seen it go both ways. Honestly, like, genuinely, I've seen times where they're like, we have no idea what the budget's like, and then I've seen other times where they're like, oh, yeah, sure. That was an oversight. And I'm like, okay, cool. And then we put it in.
Nik:Yeah. That's a good catch right there is like, oh yeah, that's an oversight. Just ask, right? And I think this is where a lot of young artists, a lot of young artists are just again, kind of scared. Like I recently have had someone ask me, okay, is it okay? Like, I don't want to see him annoying, you know, like, is it okay? I'm like, yo, welcome to the music business. First off, this is how it works. You fucking negotiate, right? You ask for stuff. Hey, are you willing to do this? Are you willing to do that? We got to get over that, like people pleasing part. And this is, this is really where I come in as like a. Like a mindset coach, you know, it's like, that actually has to do with how do I see myself and my worth? Am I putting the label on a pedestal and am I putting myself below them? Because then I seem like, oh, I'm, I'm being annoying by asking. And it's like, no, no, no. That's, that's a thing inside of you that you got to conquer. You got to get over, you got to recognize like, Hey, I am a, a valuable person. I'm a valuable artist we all get a seat at the table and we get to negotiate about things. So. That work and things that don't work and we get to ask. And then the worst thing is like, no, actually we're not willing to do that, but at least you fucking asked. Right. And so no playing small, no people pleasing, no bullshit. Like, come on, we're, we're all adults and this is just part of negotiation. So you got to ask and you'd be surprised at how many times people would be like, Oh yeah, sure. Okay. No problem.
Arta:can't, I can't tell you how much I agree with you on this. Honestly, it's really that simple. And I think, like, to add to that, I think that what people forget, like, sometimes I have to break really bad news, like being an attorney, like, it's part of your job. Like, you have to share the good news and the bad news. It's not all just like butterflies and rainbows. Like, there's going to be times where there's going to be parts of a deal that might not be made. The Great, but you feel that that's like what you really badly want to do. So what do we do here? I think how you ask makes a huge difference. And like, for me, that's, that's a huge thing. I try to be friendly until I pretty much have to not be friendly. Right. But like, generally speaking, I'm like, I don't look at it as like, oh, we were all grabbing. We're all like, we're all starving. We need to Steal this pie away. I think that we can all be here together to grow together and to make things better together So I I i'm like i'm not looking at them as like they're your enemy. I'm like dude this is the team that's going to be pushing your track helping you shape your brand Uh, you know who knows where it's going to go in the future? So we don't want to start off on a bad foot. So even when I have to give bad news I'm, just like if you ask just be respectful. It's it's like really really simple You might be even if you're asking for something insane You She's like, Hey, I feel like I want to do this. It's important for me. So like, you know, what do you guys think? And I think is if you're not being like a dick about it, then yeah, you can definitely make some progress. And, you know, like you said, worst case scenario, like they can say no, but if you don't even ask, then there, then you're not, there's no chance. You're going to get it. If there was a 150 or 90 percent chance now, it's zero because you didn't say anything. Yes.
Nik:that I talk to my clients about is really seeing everything, really, as partnership. Just like, what's the energy that you're coming into a relationship with? The relationship with in the first place, it's almost like dating. If you're coming into the relationship, feeling like insecure or feeling not enough, like that's going to be felt, you know, what's the, what's the energy that you're coming into this with? Is it that, Oh, we, we all got to fight and, and, you know, fight to get as much percentage as we can. And you're coming in with aggressive energy, like, well, that's going to set the tone, but a lot of artists are also coming in with what I was referring to earlier as. Kind of making themselves lesser than the label. Like, Oh my God, I'm so lucky to be signed to this thing. And also thinking that, well, I'm going to sign to this label and they're going to take care of everything. They're going to do all the marketing. And it's like, no, this is your song. This is your release. And when you go out to shop for a label, what you're doing is you're just, you're looking for a partner. It's like, Hey, I'm putting this song out. This is my song. I'm an artist. This is my career. I'm an artist. I'm going to do everything I fucking can to make this the best release. And when I go out to shop around, I'm just looking for like, Hey, who do I want to partner with? Do you want to get on board with me? Do we like we're on the same team, right? And so coming at it with that partnership kind of attitude that, you know, we're all on the same team kind of attitude and energy, like it should be fun. It should be great. Even when it comes to the negotiations, like, Hey, yeah. Let's come from an abundance mindset. We're going to make a bunch of fucking money together, right? Like the songs didn't do great together. Yes. Like, hell yeah. what what makes sense? What feels good for both of us. Right. And, and it literally is, it's, it's a mindset and an energy and an attitude that you get to bring to the whole process. Yeah,
Arta:agree more. Like, that's, that's the whole, that's the thing. I think, like, in the industry to, uh, I, I've said it before. It can take it literally, like, 1 person can ruin an organization. I've seen that play out. And so that's the thing. Like, you put yourself out there, you're being genuine and you look at it like, hey, let's go together. And yeah, to an earlier point that you made, I think artists have to remember that in this day and age, you don't necessarily need a label as bad. You know what I mean? Like, back in the day, like, you know, decades ago, it might be much harder to scrape together the money to get, uh, you record in a, in a studio and to understand how and where to place ads. But now, um, when people get super stoked about a deal and then I read it over and it's garbage, I, I like to, again, it's the message might be a horrible message, but I try to present it with, you know, like positivity. I'll be like, look, I just want to let you know, like, we can try to push back on all these things and, you know, but just so you're aware, if they're not going to slide and you're going to, this is the best that you're going to get close to this. There's a lot you can do on your own. Or with your own team that you know, you're not you're not going to be stuck with this so, um
Nik:I think one of the big advantages of signing with labels, and there's only really a handful of them out there that have basically. You know, more than just like, Hey, we can put a track up on Spotify and put a couple hundred bucks into, into an ad, you know, it's like, okay, anybody can fucking do that. But you do have the Demox out there or the insomniac records, you know, where it's like, Hey, if you affiliate with us and we develop a partnership together and we put out some music together, we got, some shows going on. We can put you on those shows. Yeah. You know, uh, a dirty bird or a dim mock or, you know, uh, and June a beat. So a lot of these labels, they also have really established brands that are throwing parties and throwing events. Do you ever see show terms, like, uh, agreements for a certain amount of shows getting written into contracts? Or is that more of like a handshake deal behind the scenes for some of those bigger
Arta:You know, it's funny because I've seen it kind of play out both ways, but I've seen I've seen shows built into deals before. Sometimes you have to be a little bit like lighter with the language. Like for example, if you're going to be like dead set super fixed on like the release date, like That it is what it is, but with the shows, you might be like, you know, you're, we're, you know, we're going to make, you know, let's say, like, reasonable efforts or best efforts to get you on like a label branded show within the next, you know, 12 months or within the next 6 months or like, you know, 3 shows in the next 18 months or whatever the combination ends up actually being, I feel like sometimes the tricky part with that is nailing it down with like specificity because someone might be like, Oh, well, I want to like open for this act. And it's like, well, what if they just ended a tour cycle? Or like, what if they've already like agreed who's going to be opening for them? You know what I mean? So sometimes you have to do it a little bit more loosey goosey, but I've definitely seen it like put in deals before. And in some situations, it really makes sense. And yeah. In some situations, it's actually beneficial for everybody because I mean, the label signing their up and comer and they have their other act that's going out on the road. It can definitely be beneficial to have them like, out there, like, cross promoting
Nik:Totally. Totally. Let's go back to, you know, signing record contracts. What are some other things that people should keep an eye out for? Yeah. Yeah.
Arta:rights. And this is a broad statement, but and this can apply to a lot of different things, but there's times you might sign your track. And the marketing materials are up to the label and the music video is up to the label and all this stuff is up to the label. Well, what if you have certain political beliefs or certain religious beliefs or just you, you don't want, you know, you're very conservative in one area or another and you don't want your, music to be used in the most like sexual or violent scene in like a major network TV show, you know what I mean? But then you, you don't have the approval, right? So the label might look at it like, oh, we're going to make so much money from this license. And you're like, well. This actually bothers me personally or like tarnishes my brand. That's one of so many examples. Another thing might be like the music itself or the art. You might just like sign it over. It says it's theirs. It says that they tell you what to do. And then you're like, yeah, this is, this is not the sound that I, I wanted. Like this is, this isn't even meaningful to me anymore. So like approvals, like generally speaking, I feel like when I, when I'm on an artist side negotiation, one of the like. Broad things that I'll throw out there is just kind of like approvals all over the place and just kind of see what we can, you know, push for, and worst case scenario. If like, the labels being resistant, you can at the very least be like, all right, well, how about this? Like, this is some of the important stuff. Like, I at least want creative control on my masters. I at least want creative control over like, third party licenses and stuff. But if you guys want a little bit more flexibility on marketing, so be it. Cause you know, in that sense, they probably won't even want to tarnish their own brand. So it's not like they're going to be putting like disgusting stuff out for marketing. We can hope, but again, get it in writing. That's what I say. I'm like, try to just get it all in writing. So
Nik:Good point. All right. What else should people look out for? Yeah.
Arta:Oh, man, there's just like, there's so many, um, there's, uh, tricky accounting, creative accounting, as I like to call it, uh, where, you know, we're talking about recouping those advances, right? They're not just throwing you money. They're giving you money now based on money. They're going to generate later from sales and streams. So I've seen a lot of times where like recoupment might be set up where as a label is like generating money, you know, they might be like, okay, well, we're gonna recoup this against the money that you would have made. But we're gonna keep making money over here And i've also seen times where like there might be a scenario where like recruitment can like push deals out Um, so I I would say like the financial terms if you see words in there that you don't understand If you don't have the budget or the time or the care to hire an attorney, please for the love of god, just google it At least google it at least talk to your homie That's also making music and be like yo, what does this mean? Um to like figure out because like at the end of the day like there's a lot of love and positivity and relationships that go into this industry, but Money is an important component on this planet And so if you're going to be needing to pay for your expenses You got to make sure that you understand how you're getting paid Especially if you owe a lot of masters or if you're going to be with a label for a long time,
Nik:Hmm. One of the things that I remember seeing back when I was a manager was, I think, I think it was called like, there's like reserves and then something about like packaging. I forget the actual term, but there was, there was, A certain amount of like money would be held back. Just in case, while this is like, they're referring to physical product, like if this was when there were like CDs or records are being shipped to the record store from the actual, you know, physical distribution plant that the CDs might break. Right. And so they would reserve a certain amount of money for like, what would ultimately be like. Broken CDs and records that just got fucked up along the process and that was years ago We're talking about just purely digital just redistribution now But those terms would still be in a lot of these contracts
Arta:I think the, the, the kind of the foundation to that is like, having the money to account for the breakage, having to have the money to account for the loss. It's like, it's almost like an insurance policy, like a reserve against loss. You know what I mean? So and and like you said, it's not really relevant
Nik:Right. It that, yeah. It doesn't really make sense anymore,
Arta:And then that that reminds me to another, um, another term that's outdated that stays in. I've seen labels actually get better about this, but not 100%. Is mechanical royalties. So for a long time, the labels were like, Hey, we're paying you advances and royalties and all this money on the record side. The mechanicals go to like the writer publisher. and so like the artist often having a stake on the publishing side, uh, we accept that they'd be like, okay, pay the mechanicals at 75%. We don't care. well, again, now that it's all like, you know, it's, it's a tougher industry nowadays, right? It's shifted a lot. And, uh, the justification is just, it's, it's not really real anymore. So sometimes just because it's been happening for a long time. It'll just say, you know, 75 percent of the minimum statutory rate and it's like, well, why don't you just ask for 100 percent of the statutory rate? And again, worst case scenario, they just say no. But that's 1 of those, like, leftover, like, kind of fossils from, like, the old, the old deal that keeps making its rounds.
Nik:And remind me what mechanical royalties are again.
Arta:Let's say back in the 90s, you're, like, pressing CDs, there's going to be, like, a fixed rate. That's set statutorily by the, like, the federal law that's going to say, like, okay, every time you print a CD, you have to give, like, X amount of sense to the publishers, like the writer, because that's another thing, too, in the industry. I was, I have to remind people there's there's 2 sets of rights in every track. You have what you hear. So, like, the master, the recording, then you have what you see, like, the lyrics and the notes. So, like, the master side, the publishing side, the recording side, the composition side. And so, like, the mechanical royalties are meant when the record side. Is being distributed there's always going to be an underlying side that you can't see every song is either going to have notes Or beats or lyrics, right? And so whoever's in control of that side from the record side is going to get their little like tidbit like it was cd sales
Nik:per, yeah, it's like 7. 65 cents or something per CD, right?
Arta:And then now I, I honestly, I don't remember what it was. I remember 9. 1. 9. 1 is definitely a relevant number for a certain time. But nowadays that's the thing. The CDs, it's like these days now it's just a minuscule number, um, a decimal, for like streaming. So they still pay it It's just been
Nik:applies to streaming. They still get, it's, it is the publishing owners, the people that own the composition side, Getting a percentage of the streaming sales or the, sorry, the, the, the streaming royalties on the master side.
Arta:Yeah, it's like it's basically like it's like because you're reproducing the owner of that compositions like work in a recorded form, like you're paying them to be able to do that.
Nik:Yeah. So if this is going above your head and you're literally like, what the fuck are these guys talking about? Well, one, I think that that shows where. Your and no offense, but this shows where your level of music business education is. And the truth is, is like, this is some complicated shit. I used to teach, I taught the music business class at icon collective. This was always the class that everyone was just like, what? Like it's, it's, it's hard stuff to understand. But it's good to understand. It's good to understand like this is your business. You are a business owner. It's important to understand all of the ins and outs of how your business and how your industry works. Right. So, uh, I would highly recommend to go maybe on YouTube and, you know, like research, like what are mechanical royalties? What is the difference between a master and a composition, How does publishing work? Like do a little bit of education, do a little bit of a, deep dive into this just so you can wrap your head around, you know, what do all these numbers mean? when you're getting your royalty statements from a record label or when you're getting your royalty statements from Spotify, right? Just so that you have a basic understanding of it. Do you have any suggestions for resources of like good music business resources that break down some of these really complicated subjects in like a digestible way?
Arta:It's so funny because my, my music law class in school and my did my internship, they like happened at the same time and both of them. told me to get the same book. And so I was like, this is perfect. Two birds, one stone. So the classic Donald Passman, uh, all you need to know about the music business. That was like the first thing that was recommended to me from both of those
Nik:Is that, still relevant though? I remember that was
Arta:well, they're still, they're still updating
Nik:page, like thick ass book. I remember like, I remember like reading some of it. I'm just like, it's, it's kind of dense. There's gotta be a, uh, you know, I'm talking about like a YouTube infographic, like music business for dummies that breaks shit down, you know, is there, is there anything out there like that, that, you know?
Arta:I don't know if we will ever reach a point in human civilization, especially when it comes to like the music publishing and like, as if it's already not enough. I mean, it's like you have the record and then the publishing side and then you have like the writer share and the publisher share these little like breakdowns. I'm like, will we ever have a point in history where it's going to be clear?
Nik:Were it simple? Yeah,
Arta:yeah.
Nik:yeah. Fair
Arta:Um, but I mean, like, I mean, that book, they keep updating it. So I will say for what it's worth though, like, yeah, I, I don't know if I would, um, just embark on just busting through every last page of that. I think that there's more shorter, uh, digestible kind of tidbits. There's definitely like on, um, YouTube, YouTube is a great resource. I feel like for a lot of different people in the music industry, from whether you're trying to figure out how to do something in Ableton to whether you're trying to figure out what a legal term is. Um, and that's, that's again, also, you know,
Nik:YouTube University. baby. That's where it's at. For sure.
Arta:So, I mean, like, and I'm, I'm hoping to be one of those resources. Like, that's why I'm putting out more tidbits and, and sharing stuff with people where I'm like, I want to give overviews and explanations and, and kind of familiarize people with this stuff. But then that's the other thing, too. I love talking to people. So, if someone's like, Hey, I watched your video, but like, this, I still don't know what the hell this means. That's why I'm like, just talk to me. Like, I love talking to people. And even when people like, I feel like people feel like kind of pressure. They're like, well, if you're talking to someone, like, does that mean they're offended if I don't hire them? I'm like, no, I'm like, We're in this community together. Like I don't just sit in here all day and like shut all the doors and just read contracts. Like I go to shows, I hang out with people. I actually, I have a rental business that I do on the side. Like I have short term rentals that I offer and like my businesses tie into each other. And that when like people are in town for a tour, I'm not just like, I only talk to you on email and phone. I'm like, come here. You have a place to stay. We can go to the show together. We can get dinner together. I want to get to know you. I want to talk to you. I want to know why the hell are you even making music? You know what I mean? Or like, what's next for you? And so, um, I want to remind people that like, to like, reach out and talk to people to it. Because if you're research on your own through like books or YouTube or whatever, you're, you're like, still not getting it. Talk to people. I think it's a beautiful industry to connect and the relationships I think mean so, so, so much.
Nik:Yeah. 100 percent man. I think that's a good segue into when should somebody hire a lawyer? Like, when do you think that that's like important to do in what situations, what types of contracts do you feel like it would be advisable to really reach out to a professional and have them handle it? Yeah,
Arta:is as soon as possible, as soon as you can, because you might enter into a record deal that you don't understand and you're like just your career just starting to blossom and you don't realize how constrained going to be. Not every deal is like that. I mean, you know, sometimes that's one of the, I guess, frustrating parts of my job where it sounds like all doom and gloom and scary, like labels trying to steal everything. It's not always that way. Sometimes like labels are also realizing the landscape and some, some will pre adjust. Well, they'll send you stuff that right off the bat is already more balanced out because they want to be known for, like, fostering that community mindset. But for the situations that that's not happening, I always advise. Yeah. Sooner rather than later. And sometimes again, even if you're very early on in your career, you can just talk to attorneys and just, just ask them for their opinion. Like, they, they might look over a deal and like, Hey, I'm going to charge you this much to actually go in depth, but I can tell you, like, you know, just on an initial glance, like, you know, this isn't the worst thing I've ever seen or whatever. Um, it's just attorneys always have to be careful too. Like, I even have to say this now. I feel like I always have to, I have this pressure. I feel like always kind of, that's, it's saying like, you know, You have to tell people like, hey, what I'm saying is not legal advice because we are so heavily kind of like regulated and monitored. I guess I'm monitored, but just regulated. Right? And so, like, on the end of all my videos, I'm putting like, this is not legal advice
Nik:so we'll just jump in right now and say, everybody that's listening, this is not official legal advice. This is just a podcast of two dudes talking about the music business, okay? Legal disclaimer, we're throwing that in
Arta-1:Always putting that, always putting that in my videos. This is not legal advice, we're heavily regulated, so I just don't want to mess anything up. Somebody sees the video, they go sign a deal, and then they come and they're like, hey man, I relied on this that you posted on the video, and now my whole music industry career has
Nik:You, you ruined my life.
Arta-1:It's all over why
Nik:Um, so, okay, look, let's, let's talk about, I wanna share a little story. This was my very first day when I actually, uh, I worked for the manager of the black eyed piece for a little while. A little fun music, business history for me and, and my journey and my career. Um. I started my career at Capitol Records and I got very close with David Guetta's camp during that time we had David Guetta, that was awesome, David Guetta produced and worked with the Black Eyed Peas, he produced I Got a Feeling, he produced a bunch of stuff with, you know, with them and Will. i. am and so I got introduced to the Black Eyed Peas camp and I got hired by the manager over there and that was awesome, that was like, the cool thing is that also he was partnering with the, with Pasquale from Insomniac. And they had this idea of launching the discovery project. So I got to be a part of literally what's still running now, um, which kind of also went on to become Insomniac records. So really, really cool opportunity back then. Now I remember my very first day on the job. My very first day in the office, I got thrown into a situation where one of the guys on our roster, he was a producer and he had, you know, they would just pop in the studio and they would make music with other producers. There was another producer that he collaborated with, and I think like Fergie was on it, was on the track or something. And, you know, a handful of producers and singers, songwriters, everybody was involved in making the song. Nobody. Signed anything or agreed to anything about the song. All of a sudden the song gets placed in a makeup commercial and there was like a hundred thousand dollars there was a sync deal now we're in a situation where. The producers, managers are all fighting over who's getting what. And that was, that was a very fun first day on the job. what do you recommend for, you know, when you're going into the studio, a lot of people don't want to. They don't want to mess up the creative energy, the vibe. It's like, I just want to come and create. So like, let's, let's not talk about splits and stuff like that. Yet sometimes when you don't talk about splits, all of a sudden there's a bunch of money on the table and managers and lawyers are all fighting over it. Right. So how do you recommend artists go about, um, finding that balance of, you know, being. You know, being in the studio and being creative, but also like, having these necessary music business discussions, especially over splits.
Arta-1:Well, I think that again kind of like with the hiring an attorney sooner rather than later I think that the sooner in the process that you can jump into that the better and and again, too. I one thing I will show they're out there I I tell people a lot of the time i'm like this is a creative fun industry so if you need a bad guy to blame, like, I'm like, just blame me, man. Just say our lawyer is the one that's saying like, oh, we got to go change this term. And we got to do this. Um, because I'm like, I'm like, you're supposed to be out there, like creating, right? And like bouncing, like, you're not supposed to be sitting there squabbling over 15 versus 25%. Um, but yeah, generally speaking, I think it can help everybody to get the contracts in place sooner rather than later. If, if going into the studio with the like preset splits is too stressful, then at least Talk about it as soon as you can after because like I have to play a lot of cleanup My job is a lot of cleanup where somebody like Situations like what you just said are are actually too common unfortunately where like people might like they they release a track they have a Good vibe with the label or the other artist that has a good vibe with the label and then The song comes out. It does really well. And this, this guy that might have taken a thousand dollar advance or a 5, 000 advance. If you talked about this six months ago, now they see that there was a makeup brand or a movie studio or whatever that wants it. Or now you see the streams are just blowing up. I mean, going from six figures, seven figures, eight figures. Now, what would have been like a 5, 000 advance budget is now going to be a 50, 000 advance or 100, 000 advance. So as a label or as a like hiring artist because you could be an independent artist that hires a vocalist that this happens to right? Um, I think it's for for that situation. It's beneficial to have it in place sooner but honestly, it can be beneficial for the other side as well for like the the The person who gets brought on or hired, to do that or like the vocalist or producer that contributes to the label or the main artist project. Cause if you don't have the contract in place, there might be squabbles over splits later. They might not pay you. They might be like, well, you never signed a contract. So how are we supposed to know what your accounting statements are supposed to look like? Um, so it can, I think that that that's a use. It can be useful for all the parties to figure it out sooner rather than later and not have to fight over cleanup after the track is already out or already licensed.
Nik:Yeah. I just, I just Googled this real quick. Cause I just remembered, there's an app that create music group made called splits. It's basically, An app that in a very simple way, you can just have everybody log into and just put in, put in the percentage of splits right there. And it's like, everybody signs it electronically and it's like, it's all done in like two seconds rather than having to, you know, draft up a big contract or anything. So check out the splits app. By create music group, I'm going to hit up their owner. Actually. I'm calling, I'm manifesting this right now, speaking it out loud. I used to know, uh, Alex, it's been a long time, but they're incredible. They, they do huge, like YouTube monetization and have a few big studios. Um, anyways, check out the splits app that, that can help. And like, yeah, it's, it's just important. You got to have that conversation at some point. So yeah, have it. Do it before there's a bunch of money on the table. Uh, that will usually help. And save managers and lawyers a lot of stress. Because I remember that being a very stressful first day on the job. That was not fun.
Arta-1:I bet. Well, yeah, I mean like that it happens and then it just sucks because If you talked about it beforehand, like, right, there might be a little bit of, you know, like buyer's remorse, like, ah, maybe we should have asked for more or whatever, but it pales in comparison to like the nasty, uh, conversations that you kind of see come into play, like after the fact,
Nik:And something I used to advise a lot as well was that, you know, a lot of times we're doing these handshake deals or you might have a conversation and like, let's say you negotiate something in conversation. It's, it's, uh, I'm going to, you know, pay you X amount of money to do this, or we're going to split the something, you know, split the royalties 50, 50, and it might be a verbal conversation that you have. I would usually advise to then. Follow up with an email and put it in email and say, Hey, like, you know, based off what we talked today, like, this is what we said and email it to them and then like have them email it back just so that there was basically a paper trail. Is that legally binding at all? Or does it actually like if there's like an email that I, you know, you had sent and like, Hey, look, you emailed me back. We've got it right here. If you were to go to court per se, like does that, is that email legit and legally binding or does it have to like really be on a contract written out and signed with a pen?
Arta-1:Let me throw two things out back at you. One, it depends, but two, generally speaking, something is better than nothing. And it's so funny because your process. That is exactly what I do or ask people to do, even if we're not talking about like binding negotiation, like contract terms for something as simple as like, you know, somebody might give me a call and have like a consult, or I'm talking to a long standing client. They have a new project or whatever. That advice I think is phenomenal. To just get it in writing because there's certain situations that certain things can become binding or at least serve as, as evidence to, to be used. but like the, the shortest version of it is get it in writing and, and exactly like you just laid out. I love to do that as well. And, uh, I, I usually tell people too, because sometimes it can be a little awkward, you know what I mean? Like asking for that. So I don't even like it to reach the awkward phase. Like if I'm getting to the end of a consult, I'll just tell someone like, Hey, by the way, it was great to talk to you. I'm going to shoot over my rates and, uh, you know, like what kind of the estimates that I have in mind. so I'm going to send that to an email. So just so you have it. And then you get back to me, you know, review at your leisure. And if you have questions or whatever, let me know. So get rid of the awkwardness. And then. You're actually like putting your money where your mouth is. You're you're actually backing up your word. You're not just saying something and then you do a project for them. And then later you're like they said you send the bill and they're like, what the fuck is this?
Nik:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I'm just realizing how much of this is it's music business knowledge, like just knowing the nuts and bolts of the math, right? And how things work and what industry standards are. There's that side of it. And then there really is this whole other side of it, which is just about personal communication. Right. Being able to have these conversations, being able to negotiate, being able to have people like you so that they want to work with you and they want to, they, they want to find a fair deal. There's like just the, the personal side of it is so important as well. Uh, and I think that that's where, having a good lawyer on your team can really, can really make sense. You know, I think one, you might not want to have those conversations yourself, or I might not want to be the one. Negotiating all of all of these things, I want to be the artist. I just want to fucking create, I just want to make music. I don't want to have to worry about that. Like talk to my, like, here's my lawyer. And also, you know, the lawyer is probably going to be way more trained and versed in having those conversations, you know, being able to negotiate, having good relationships with people. It, it. It is making more and more sense to me, like why an artist would want to, you know, really just be like, Hey, like you handle this. This is your wheelhouse. This is your zone of genius. Let me focus on mine. If somebody was interested in working with you, I'm sure a lot of people are listening to this right now and being like, Damn, yeah, I actually do need a lawyer. I should have somebody looking over my stuff. Um, how can people contact you and reach out?
Arta-1:So I have my website. It's just my first and last name and I have a very frustrating name sometimes on this spell it out. It's a RTA. M A J D Dot com. It's my first name last name. Um, I also like my instagram and youtube like all it's all pretty consistently branded It's just my first name last name. I'm pretty easy to find and you know, I just tell people i'm like Connect with me if you have a question, or if you want to just follow me, just to see what I'm talking about. Maybe in 6 months or a year, you or a friend might have something. But I don't want people to be scared or worried about reaching out. I'd be like, oh, God, this guy's going to try to sell me something like immediately. I don't operate that way. I've seen lawyers, especially in like, more. I want to say. Kind of like high stakes areas. Let's say like criminal law where like I've heard of like, you know what people will like call a lawyer and they're like Oh my god if you don't hire if you don't send me this retainer right now and if you don't get me on your case like You're gonna have your you're gonna go to jail and your record's gonna be ruined and your whole life is over And i'm like, dude, like what kind of a sick way? Is that like I sleep really well at night because I like to be straightforward with people and I just tell them i'm like These are my thoughts This is my estimate. As far as costs, you know, there's no one size fits all scenario. So I just tell people, I'm like, talk to me. I'm not going to pressure you into it. I'll give you my assessment and try to help you out. And if I can't help you out again, I might end up, we might end up becoming friends or, or colleagues, or we might just end up connecting down the road when you or somebody else might need the help.
Nik:Yeah, you might be staying at the at the the rental property at some point grilling up steaks and drinking a beer together One of these nights who knows?
Arta-1:Oh man, it gets so hot here. I'm in Arizona, licensed California, Arizona, but then when it's summertime, the girl gets hot, those steaks, you get that sizzle on there. Love
Nik:So good, man. Well, I'll be sure to put your Instagram and your website in the show notes. If anybody's looking for a good lawyer, you know where to go. Hit up Arda. He'll take care of you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I know we could have, we could do fucking four more of these because there's so much deep stuff to go into. There's so much, we haven't talked about management contracts for someone that's, being faced with a management contract. There's so many other clauses and things to go in there. So, one, everybody go, you know, learn as much as you can, educate yourself, go to YouTube university. Um, but also, yeah, tap into hitting up some professionals and having, you know, people really like walk you through that process. You never know what you're signing, you know, unless you're like really, really well versed in this stuff. So, go hit up Arda. He'll take care of you. Thanks so
Arta-1:Appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me on. This is the time flew by. I, yeah, I would, I would talk for hours, but I appreciate the opportunity and I appreciate being here. And yeah, like I said, like, I appreciate you and anyone else out there that I can help and be a resource to, I would love to do that.
