Headliner Mindset
The Headliner Mindset podcast explores what it truly takes to succeed as an artist in the EDM industry. Through interviews with some of the biggest DJs, artists and professionals in the game, we dig into not only the business strategies for success but also how to navigate the mental, emotional and spiritual aspects of the artist journey. For more info, go to www.nikcherwink.com.
Headliner Mindset
MODESTEP - 15 Years of Pushing Boundaries
In this episode of the Headliner Mindset Podcast, I sit down with Modestep for an honest conversation about what it really takes to last in the music industry.
We talk about the parts of the artist journey that don’t make it onto social media — burnout, mental health, physical wear and tear from touring, and the pressure to keep showing up even when you’re struggling.
Josh shares real insight on:
- Why going viral doesn’t equal selling tickets
- The difference between online hype and real fans
- DJ culture vs live band performance
- The realities of touring, injuries, and burnout
- How AI is changing music — and where artists should be cautious
This episode is for artists who want longevity, not just momentary attention — and who care about building something real.
Follow Modestep here:
www.instagram.com/modestep
don't be fooled by how easy it is to become popular on TikTok and Instagram by. Playing to the tropes of what the algorithm wants. Like use that to your advantage for sure, but it's not gonna sell you tickets.
What's up everybody? Welcome to the Liner Mindset Podcast. For those of you that have been regular listeners and tuning in every week, first off. Thank you. I love you all and I appreciate all the support over the years, but I do have some sad news to share and that's that. This will be one of the final episodes of the Headliner Mindset podcast. I've had a lot of big changes in life come up over the last few months, including a new job in a new city. I'll share more about that in an upcoming episode, but for now, I just wanted to break the news to you because I know a lot of you have been tuning in every week and probably wondering why I haven't been releasing as many episodes recently. So more on that to come. But for now, we do have an awesome episode with someone who has been crushing it in the bass music scene for the last 15 years, touring all over the world, many times over, and bridging the world of. Rock and electronic music. Even playing with a live band in his shows and really pushing the boundaries with his art, which is something, you know, I love to see. This is mode step.
Nik Cherwink:Josh, welcome to the show, man. So stoked to have you here. Thanks for making the time.
Josh:Of course, mate. Thank you for having me.
Nik Cherwink:I'm gonna start things a little differently today and I'm just gonna get real fucking vulnerable. Uh, with, with, with, with you and with my audience. About an hour before we were gonna have this call, I was considering canceling.'cause I, I was having one of those days where you just wake up and you want. Nothing to do with the fucking world. And like my mental health was just spiraling. I was just feeling all, just,
Josh:man.
Nik Cherwink:just feeling, you know, just one of those days where you're just like, fuck. Like I, I'm just not the, the, the quicksand as I call it, was just sucking me in. I was falling into this kind of like, just this mental spiral and I was like, man, I don't even know if I can. Do this fucking interview today, and then,
Josh:sorry to hear
Nik Cherwink:yeah, no, thank you. But here we are. We made it, you know, we're, we're here. And, and you know, it, it, what I realized was like, you know, that wouldn't be very headliner mindset of me, because sometimes I'm sure you have a fucking show that you have to play, right? And there's thousands of people out there, and just because you're having a bad day doesn't mean you can be like, oh, I don't want to go play this show. You know?
Josh:That's it, man. I mean, the famous saying is the show must go
Nik Cherwink:The,
Josh:So,
Nik Cherwink:the show must go on. So I wanted, I wanted to just start in the deep end, man, like, you know, you're human, you're not invincible to the, you know, to the, to the challenges that we all face. Like, what do you do when you, when you go through those moments, right? Those mental spirals and those challenges, how do you work through those?
Josh:Man, I'm not gonna lie, I'm human too. And there are definitely days where I'm like, you know what? Today is a fuck the world day. And it is a just, if I can just do something that I enjoy, if it's something nerdy. Or if it's even just playing games, if it's jumping on discord with my friends, whatever it is, or just take my dogs out for a walk or sit with my girlfriend and shoot zombies for the day. It has to be one of those days. Um, but sometimes there is is times where like this industry is especially it can get super stressful and you've got your manager messaging you, when's the next social media post going out? And you're like, there is nothing more. Nothing less I want to do on this Earth
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:out and, and post a front facing camera video.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:But, you know, sometimes it's a job, sometimes you gotta suck it up and you just gotta make it happen. And sometimes it's okay to say, I'm having a bad day today. Today, and it, it's not happening.
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:um, it's about finding that balance for me, man. I mean, I've been doing this 15 years now
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:there's definitely been times where I'm just like. Nah,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:it's, it's, it's, it's hard work and, and I, I dunno if I have it in me today. Um, but we're still here. We're still making it happen. And that's, that's the important thing is that you gotta make sure there are, there are better days more often than there are bad days, and you have to change your life in whichever way helps getting to that goal. I think.
Nik Cherwink:A hundred percent. And it's oftentimes I feel like I, I, you know, like this podcast is already gonna be one of my favorites. I know, because I was like, man, I wasn't feeling in the best mood. But then it's like when you lean into it and you're like, no, the show must go on. You lean into it, and then it's like, it's such a big win. You know, when you, when you do have those moments, right, there are the moments where you're like, Hey, I gotta put myself first and, you know, practice self care, whatever that looks like. But it's oftentimes, it's kinda like the gym, you know, when you're like, you really don't want to go to the fucking gym. You're like, oh my God. Like I do not wanna go to the gym today. But then when you do, at the end of it, you're like, wow, I like that gym session was even better because I didn't want to in the first place. Right.
Josh:Dude, if we're gonna be like totally open and honest with each other, how, how you started
Nik Cherwink:Please.
Josh:started with me having to wake up at seven, going to hospital and get my first physiotherapy session because all this touring has destroyed my spine.
Nik Cherwink:Ah.
Josh:wrecked my back. So yesterday was my first day and getting physiotherapy to be able to like. Move. Do you know
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:a pretty, it's a pretty, uh, basic thing to be able to like sleep
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:And those two things have been like really difficult over the last six months for me. So feel you,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:it's,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:I made the big mistake of going out and getting drunk the night before. So, uh, that made it even t twice as
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:but.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:I feel you, man. And these are things that you, you can't predict it. You can't, you can't plan for that kind of thing to happen, but, um, you've gotta gotta find a way to make it happen, I
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm glad that you are taking care of yourself. You know, this is something that comes up all the time on the podcast is just the reality of the physical demands of getting on flights every weekend and then. Jumping up and down on stage and it's like, that takes a toll on your body. Right? And, and just the crazy irregular sleep schedule and not eating great on the road. It's like all these are are things that, um, almost every guest I've ever talked to, you know, it comes up at some point.'cause it's, it's a very, it's a very big reality. I'm curious about with your back specifically. Like what's going on with your back? What were you maybe. Doing or not doing that, uh, maybe we can impart some wisdom on, on how to help people stay healthy on, on the, on the road and playing shows. What's going on there?
Josh:It's like the most least rockstar thing ever to have ever happened. So like, uh, two years ago I was playing, uh, EDC in Mexico and I dunno what it was about this show, but like, there was loads of dust in the air. I think it was'cause people were
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:it was kicking up dust into the air. And I spoke to a bunch of artists. Everyone ended up getting like a really severe cough and um. It hit me pretty bad, but I then had to get on a flight all the way from Mexico back to the UK about 12 hours, and then from the UK it had to go all the way to Thailand.
Nik Cherwink:Oh wow.
Josh:40 something hours of flying in three days.
Nik Cherwink:Oh my God.
Josh:so I didn't give my my body the chance to recover.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:I landed in Thailand and I was by myself and I was coughing and coughing to the point where like I really couldn't control the coughs anymore. And it was a cough that slipped a disc
Nik Cherwink:Oh,
Josh:my back.
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:dude, never in my life have I ever felt pain like
Nik Cherwink:Oh yeah,
Josh:ever, ever.
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:um, I was alone and scared and asking the promoter like, can you get me painkillers? What can you do?
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:Can you get me anything? And um, yeah, I did the show. The most
Nik Cherwink:Wow.
Josh:ever done in my life.
Nik Cherwink:Talk, talk about the show. Must go on, man, with the fucking slipped disc. That's that's rough. That's rough.
Josh:And actually I, I had two shows, so I had to do one in Thailand and then the next day I had to fly to, uh, Myanmar, which even just going to Myanmar in itself, they're going through a civil war. It's kind of a scary place to go. They had like. Civilians with guns and stuff like that. And I
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:damn, this is all I wanna do is just get to the hotel and sit in a hot bath because
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, yeah.
Josh:my back, uh, I've never been in this much pain anyway, fly back. thing I do is, uh, get off the plane, go straight to hospital, and they're
Nik Cherwink:Hmm
Josh:damn, you've messed yourself
Nik Cherwink:mm-hmm.
Josh:I did that two years ago. Then I went through physio and managed to fix it. And then since then, I've basically just. I've been doing the worst thing for myself, man, being in the studio every day, not waking up, stretching, not doing what I should be doing.
Nik Cherwink:Yep.
Josh:I had an album to finish,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah. Y'all,
Josh:for not, for not doing it, but yeah.
Nik Cherwink:y'all think this rockstar lifestyle is glamorous, but we're out here pushing through slip discs in the middle of civil wars. Uh, and bro, I, yo, I feel you. I, I did, uh, I was a big CrossFit guy for a while, and, and I threw my back out probably like maybe five years ago. I did the same thing and yeah. So I've, I've learned how to Yeah. Live with that and deal. I, I literally in my chair. I have a little, I have a little pad right here. A little, I have a little pad in my chair just to, you know, to try to keep that that form. Okay. And yeah, if right you got, yeah, you got the, gotta have the good chair. But yeah, you're spending so much time sitting in a chair and then, I mean, the flights, like you said, 40 hours of just, you know, sitting in a chair there as well, and. Yeah, these are the things, I mean, I'm, I'm turning 40 in two weeks and I will tell you all, all, all you young bucks in your twenties and your thirties still, it's like the, it's true. Like your body also starts to just, just getting older. Just like, man, this is,
Josh:man.
Nik Cherwink:if you're not on flights and jumping up and down on stage all the time, it's just, we really gotta start taking care of ourselves. And it's, it's the, like, the mobility and the stretching, all the shit that, like, nobody really, it's not the fun stuff that people want to do. You know? Like I, I love going to the gym and running, but it's like you really gotta. Do the, the rehab and the mobility and stuff too. Treating yourself like an athlete, you know? Yeah,
Josh:I mean, yesterday she gave me like. Tiny movements to do and
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:up today and I'm just like,
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:hurting, man.
Nik Cherwink:yeah, man.
Josh:it's all good. We'll, um, I've, I've already got over it once before and then, yeah, like six months ago. I dunno what I did, I, no idea. It just res slipped. So,
Nik Cherwink:yeah, yeah. No, it, it happens, man. Uh, well, look, I, you know, I, as much as I was in my little pissy pouty mood this morning, um, all I really needed was I needed to drink some coffee, and then I needed to go listen to some, mode step and go, th go through your catalog and listen to some music. And, and, and then also, you know what, really flipped my mood around. Honestly. It was just, I, I got really excited to have this conversation and to just learn a bit about you and your journey and, the brand as well. This project, which I saw really, you used to be like a full band when you guys started, which I'm. I'm so curious to hear about the origin of, mode step and, you know, the evolution of it now.'cause like you said, you've been in the game for 15 years and, and let's just sell, let's just celebrate that for a minute. Um, but i'm a big metalhead and I've been on a crazy drum and bass kick. I'm starting to like dabble in production too, and like, you know, doing the kind of electronic, uh, rock, you know, hybrid shit. So, um, yeah, like hearing that you were kind of doing, doing, uh, bringing in the live instruments, you know, to me I think was so cool. And so I'd, love to just hear a bit about the origin of the band and how y'all started and what it used to look like.
Josh:Sure. So basically, even though outwardly it's always been presented as a band,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:I've always been the one to produce it. So, um. there being however many members come and go, the main force in the studio has always been myself. Um, that being said, the big thing for us was when we started the project, I'm also a big metal rock, live music in general guy. Right? So for me, it was when we started the project and I started writing the first. of music for it in mind. It was always, this has to be performed live and has to be performed with the energy of a band.
Nik Cherwink:Mm.
Josh:growing up from the age of 16, every year I'm going to music festivals. I'm seeing my favorite bands play, um, more so than DJs. That was always my thing. Always love going and watch bands. And I love the energy and like the synergy that bands have on stage.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:just like hearing an instrument play something live does something to me.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:is
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:uh. Being part of a band and hearing like music you've written be played in the live form makes me emotional as a human being. I
Nik Cherwink:yeah. Yeah.
Josh:It's like it, it does something to me like on a deep level and I love it. So for me, we started producing and I probably had made about five mode step tunes before we'd even conceived of like what the live thing was gonna be. Um, and. I started off, I made a song called Sunlight Feel
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:to the Stars, and I made those all in the same day.
Nik Cherwink:Wow.
Josh:I did, this was my first attempt at EDM. I mean, like to us, this genre wasn't really EDM at the time.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:underground, uh, urban music.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah.
Josh:So I made these, uh, three tunes and it was my first attempt to like, let's say electronic music production.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:then I was just like recording bands. I was, uh, a songwriter. I was producing hip hop, pop, all these different types of like, say more like traditional stars of music.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:and I really liked the first tune I made, sent it to a friend of mine who had a YouTube channel called UKF
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:um. He uploaded it and overnight the demo version of the song got like a million plays.
Nik Cherwink:Wow.
Josh:and then next thing I know, record labels and Radio one here in the uk, which is like the, it was the foundation of, of British music. They hit me up and they were like, Hey, we wanna play this every day on the radio.
Nik Cherwink:And,
Josh:to quit my job and that I've been touring it ever since.
Nik Cherwink:and, and this was, this was off of, this was one of the three songs. Was this the Sunlight, song?
Josh:Yep.
Nik Cherwink:I'm seeing that.
Josh:was one of them.
Nik Cherwink:Talk you guys
Josh:Good was another one.
Nik Cherwink:just to, yeah. Made three songs in a day. So I'm so curious about this. I'm looking at Sunlight. Sunlight has 47 million plays on spot on Spotify right now. Uh, this is one of three songs that you made in one day, which is, this is blowing my mind right now. Um, let's, let's just pause there for a second because, you know, everybody wants to write a hit, right? You wrote a hit. And two other songs that also probably did pretty well all in one day. Like what's the secret behind that?
Josh:I think it was a point where the genre had no boundaries. It had no like, preconceived notion of what it was. Um, it was still in quite an e experimental phase. It was new and I was bringing my experience as a songwriter to something that
Nik Cherwink:Mm.
Josh:didn't really have songwriting attached to it.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:and like I said, I was always writing and recording, like pop rock, uh, hip hop, r and b soul, that kind of thing. So like for me, every song had to have like a hook, a structure, chorus versus,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:something you could sing back. So I just brought that to it and I, I dunno, man, it was. I guess just the fact that I didn't have to stick to a template. I didn't have to, fit within a sub genre like producers these days, it's like I get sent maybe 300 tunes a month, and a lot of them are just copy paste of whatever is big right now. And
Nik Cherwink:Totally.
Josh:was no big right now.
Nik Cherwink:Mm, mm-hmm.
Josh:we were just making what was true to us, I guess.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:um, that's, that's what took off.
Nik Cherwink:you bring up a really good point as well. It was, it was a different time, you know, a different era also though, like that songwriting piece of like, just. Writing a good song, knowing how to write a song. As someone who I, I had a huge breakthrough this last weekend'cause I finally, like, I, I've always played the guitar and I just fuck around and I jam. But I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna actually sit down and let's record some of this stuff. Let me start, you know, lemme start learning. Like, let's actually turn it into a song. And I've, I'm, I'm in the mixing stage now. I spent the whole day like, okay, oh shit. Learning about mixing, like, wait a minute. You don't just slam everything really loud and like you're supposed to keep it, but you know, there's a mastering part too. Like, I just learned all this shit, but. It really broke it down for me.'cause as I was mixing, I was like, oh, wait a minute. I gotta like change some of these sounds in the first place. Like, I can try to mix these sounds, but these sounds just are clashing and they're not working. But. Even then, I had to go a step deeper and I was like, wait a minute, is the arrangement of this even right in the first place? Like, does this make sense? Like the actual songwriting part, which is, I think especially with electronic music, a lot of people are just, you know, like, cool, let's put a bunch of cool bleeps and bloops together. And like, and it's, and that's electronic music, but that element of songwriting, y'all, if you, if you guys wanna make some fucking hits, if you wanna get that 47 million streams on a song, it's like. Go write a good song in the first place and then you produce it. You know, I think a lot of songs, right? Like that song, you could do a metal version of that song. You could produce it in a me as a metal track. We could do a country version of it. We could do a pop version of it. It's just a good song in the first place, then you go produce it. I think a lot of producers are producing music, but they're not actually writing songs, right.
Josh:Sure. So I think that's, that's like what, what our USB was, was like, we bring that to the table and it was in a world where it's like a lot of DJs and a lot of DJs just want DJ tools.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:like a good 16 to 32 bars of, of, uh, reaction music
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:it doesn't have to have anything other than. Uh, something to, to, to bring some form of energy,
Nik Cherwink:yeah. A build, a buildup and a drop, right.
Josh:Yeah, exactly, exactly. And my, I, I do love that stuff as well. Like, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of all of that, but I think that like, knowing your own skillset and like what my skillset was, was playing instruments,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:songs and, uh, pulling an emotion that way.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:And that, that's just what came natural to me. So once we, wrote these songs, I was like, cool. I hit all my housemates and I was like. We're getting popular, but I want this to be more than a DJ thing.'cause to me DJing is, is is watching someone static on stage. Especially back then, this was before LED screens, big production, before
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:Pyro, all of that stuff. So for us, like good production was people running around on stage and
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:So we wanted to be seen outwardly as a band. Um, and then that meant cool, let's. Remove some of the drum parts, let's get the drummer in and let's get him to play some parts and we'll mix them in with some of the electronic sounds and
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:and really fuse it together. And at the time we had people like the Prodigy and pendulum who like got me into electronic music. So
Nik Cherwink:So sick.
Josh:guys. Uh, like the more electronic metal crossover guys. Those are,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:people that I always saw at the Rock shows that I went to.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:yeah, that was kind of just, I was inspired by the things around me.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. And so how, how would you break that down? What was, when, you're playing in the band set up, are you doing live, um, like playing sense live and, you, how did you break that up? Obviously you had a drummer. What, what, what did everybody else do?
Josh:Yeah, so we have a guitarist, bassist, and a drummer,
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:then I played since as well on stage. Um. So a lot of it was, yeah, we'd remove all the drums and then we have like, uh, a, a triggered kick and snare that basically we took the original kick and snares from the tracks, removed them, but then put them so he could play them on his kit.
Nik Cherwink:Okay,
Josh:so it like sounded like a live kit, but also had the punchiness of the
Nik Cherwink:cool.
Josh:kick and snares.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:and then yeah, we would try and put loads of guitars and, and instruments within the song arrangements so that, um, so that it worked when, when, when we played it live.
Nik Cherwink:Tight. Tight. And so then when did you, uh, because then, then a few of the members left, right? You, you eventually became just a duo for a while, right? Yeah.
Josh:So at one point we had four members. Then it went down to three members, then two members, and then back to just me by myself. I think. It's always tough when you bring people on, um, to a quite a big project and they don't have like the creative control that maybe they wanted.
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:always been the guy in the studio a lot of the times alone, making the songs, finishing the songs,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:and writing them almost a hundred percent of the time by myself. So I think it's difficult when people join, an act and they're made. Part of it and treated like an equal. But when it comes to the studio stuff, it's not, they don't feel like that they, they have the, um, that they're inputting as much.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:it's difficult. Some people want their own project, and I completely understand it. it's just the way it was. So some guys dropped off and, and then now I'm alone, but I've now brought in. More musicians to do the live show. So we're doing the live show again. We did, we've done three this year, and we're about to announce like, uh, a European tour,
Nik Cherwink:Okay.
Josh:new musicians. But these guys know that they're, they're there to play the parts.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah.
Josh:two ways about it. I've been super upfront about it. I'm like, I make the music. I'm the guy at the front and you guys come with me and play live and eventually we'll see how things go. Like, honestly, I'm so lucky because we're at the stage now where I managed to go and get literally the best musicians
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:the country.
Nik Cherwink:So sick.
Josh:one drummer bar, nobody. He is absolutely phenomenal. So there probably will be a point where I'm like, dude, let's get in the studio and let's see what you can add to this.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:for now, I'm just like. I wanted to get through this record and prove to everyone like, this is what I can do by myself. it Predominantly has been me by myself, but I just want everyone to know that like my voice and my production style is what has carved out mode step from day one.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:I wanted this record to really, really show that.
Nik Cherwink:Cool man. So tell me about the new, the new record. Give up the ghost. Right. My first question is, what is the ghost?
Josh:ah, so give up the ghost is a saying in the, in the uk, and it means when a machine comes to the end of its life.
Nik Cherwink:Oh wow. That's cool. That's pretty metal. I've never heard that before. We don't say that out here. I lo I love that.
Josh:Yeah. I don't, it's not a common saying, but
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:Google what give up the ghost means,
Nik Cherwink:Okay.
Josh:that's what it means. So it's like for when a machine has come to its end of its life and is ready to die. So
Nik Cherwink:Wow.
Josh:kind of, um, it's a statement on like kind of music. In general and also how musicians are treated. And sometimes we're just treated as machines and we're, we are pushed to the point of where we break. And also it's a kind of, uh, a hint of like AI and where we're going with music and where the future of music may go. So it's kind of a conceptual record set in, in. The not too distant future and it's got all the vibes of London because I lived in America for five years. I moved back to the UK and I was just surrounded by the thing I love most, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. sounding dubstep. And
Nik Cherwink:Uh,
Josh:I just want this to be like another British mode Step
Nik Cherwink:yeah. You did a good job of that, bro. From the, the, the songs that I heard that you have out so far, it's like, it's got that vibe for sure. You nailed that. Yeah.
Josh:Thank you, man.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, yeah. Um. Let's talk about AI that's been on my mind a lot as well is just like, you know, technology has always been the driving force of music and the music industry, how music is created, how music is distributed. Obviously we're going through a really. You know, pivotal revolutionary time, I think in history right now. And there's so much stuff coming out, uh, back to mixing like, I don't know shit about production, but I literally downloaded like the waves plugin bundle for 20 bucks and then it has like automatic EQing that you can do now. And it's just like, oh. I'm like, I actually mixed this first song pretty fucking good. Because of this like AI tool, you know, it's kind of dope. But I guess, yeah, as, as, as an artist, as a creative, and especially as someone that's been, you know, in this for 15 years, you've already seen a lot of changes. I'm really kind of curious about your, your overall thoughts on AI's role in just the music industry right now.
Josh:I think that like I'm definitely not team like AI
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:has been put out because of the ease of use and the access that everybody now has to make music.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:argue that the access has actually made the quality of music maybe a little bit worse. And now we're seeing bands like, what are they called? The velvet. The Velvet. Uh. Velvet Sundown. So Velvet Sundown is this 100% AI generated band.
Nik Cherwink:Oh wow.
Josh:one guy who's AI generated pictures, an album, everything, and I think they're nearly at or exceeding a million monthly plays on Spotify.
Nik Cherwink:Wow.
Josh:So there was a big controversy about like. Should this even be allowed?
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:AI generated music. There's nothing, uh, original or written.
Nik Cherwink:Hmm.
Josh:just used AI tools to just spit out
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, But somebody did use the tools to make the music though also, right? Like somebody had to. Prompted and put it together and be the creative person behind the direction of it. Create the, even the images, you know, it's like, it's not like it made itself really like in a way it did, but somebody also had to kind of make it Right. It's an interest Interesting debate. Yeah.
Josh:I could sit down and without even listening to it, prompt an entire album of half decent music
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:I'm sit, sitting during this podcast and play it to you at the end of the podcast.
Nik Cherwink:that.
Josh:is how good Suno is getting, and it doesn't take much to prompt a pretty good song.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:so it is scary. I mean, like. Look, eventually every single job in the world is gonna be taken over by ai. So.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:Who knows, who knows where we go. Hopefully we just reach a level where like it uses too much electricity and we, we can no longer do it anymore. And then we're like, oh, let's, let's just use our brains,
Nik Cherwink:yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Josh:But yeah, I dunno. It could, it could then open up opportunities to people that, that, uh, don't have the time or, or don't want to put the time into learning the craft, but still have the imagination and thoughts and the ideas and, and the things that do make amazing records. Records. I mean, you, you could look at someone like Rick Rubin, who self admittedly has no talent as far as like
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:creating records, playing instruments, being able to mix or engineer anything. What he does is he sits at the back of the room and goes, imagination is, is, is me this is how the record should be, and then he makes it happen.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:He's no different from an AI prompter.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, he's, well, he's been very pro AI as well. Like, I've seen a lot of his clips coming out where he is talking a lot about it and, and really, you know, framing it as like, this is just a tool and there's still an artist that has to use the tool, right? So it's, uh, yeah, it's, it, it is interesting. You know, I, I, I think for me, I also, I think a lot about just the, you know. It's all about speed, right? It's all about speeding up the process. It's like, I, in one of the lazy musicians that it's like, damn, I don't want to spend a year learning how to EQ properly so I can use this tool that like, does it pretty good, in one click without necessarily needing to learn that side of it. of, yeah.
Josh:I'll tell you that is not so good about it, and this is what is gonna make music worse overall if everybody keeps using ai. AI is trained on all the music that currently exists,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:you're never gonna get any innovation because it's only trained on music that currently exists.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:So we're just gonna be recycling ideas
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:new ideas come from when people experiment, when they make mistakes, and when they sit and they don't know what they're doing. Some of the best musicians in the world are people who just pick up an instrument and they're not doing it classically trained or,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:they're not doing it because they're stealing someone else's idea. They're just. Messing around and making tons of mistakes until something good happens. And that's one thing that we are gonna miss with AI is just that experimental level of, uh, creativity that's we're just gonna end up with. So more AI music, feeding that back into ai, and then eventually it's just all gonna be the same song, which to be honest, it's kind of happening with popular
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah. It's like just a a, a sample being sampled, being sampled until like the actual quality of the, of it just deteriorates. Right. Um,
Josh:Yeah.
Nik Cherwink:how do, how do you stay innovative, at this stage in, in your career, right? Having been in the game for so long, like how do you keep pushing the boundaries creatively as an artist?
Josh:I think for
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Josh:like we just take the parts we like from other genres and mix it together instead of, I don't know, doing. I could have come back and, uh, to the UK and been like, listen to loads of Drummond bass and just made the same drummer bass that everyone else is making.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:I was like, what I love about this Drummond bass, uh, sound compliment this type of rock sound
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:type of, uh, a break sound. Or, for me that's where, where I try and stay to stay and innovate is bringing different sounds where they wouldn't normally compliment each other and. Also, I'm lucky I have my voice and that's not something that really, um, can be copied.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:a stamp of this is us, you know?
Nik Cherwink:Totally.
Josh:something that can't be copied.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Nobody, nobody can get that one off a splice. That one you have?
Josh:they can.
Nik Cherwink:Well, oh yeah. You have a pa, you have a, a pack out.
Josh:Yep.
Nik Cherwink:Oh shit.
Josh:on there. To be fair, now
Nik Cherwink:Uh.
Josh:thinking about it,
Nik Cherwink:Let's go.
Josh:let's hope someone doesn't, someone doesn't train AI on my voice and
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:of, yeah.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Wow. Um, so, tell me a bit more about this album. You said that, coming back to London and what makes it sound London as opposed to American, you know, like what is it that you've been able to really tap into there that's, uh, that's influenced the album?
Josh:I mean, I lived here my whole life and the London has this weird way of being like uplifting and dark at the same time, and. All the way back from like the rock and roll days where I kind of started here all the way to like UK garage in, in the early two thousands to breaks and hardcore gaba. All of these genres kind of developed, uh, obviously drum, bass, jungle dubstep, they all developed in this city and.
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:I dunno what it is. I think it's, it's just a long, a long standing culture and respect for the culture that the UK has. People would rather their life and soul into music than get a normal job. You know, I would say that like a vast amount of people in the UK would rather sell weed and be a mc.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:Than they would get a normal job. But just because I don't know what it is, man,
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:Everyone here just absolutely loves music
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:the culture associated it with it. We have a lot of like different ethnic minorities here. We have like a big melting pot of different cultures, and I just feel like all those influences has come together to make the UK sound,
Nik Cherwink:Dude.
Josh:what specifically is, but that combined with the rain with the London Underground, the fact that you're always shoulder to shoulder with other people, interacting with other people. Man, I lived in LA for five years and if I didn't get out of my car or my house, I didn't have to, have to. Be near anyone
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:time. I could go drive through, sit in my car.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:really, you're not shoulder to shoulder like the uk there's like of like respect and fear that comes with just like always being surrounded by other people and, yeah, just, I dunno man. I think it is the, the public transport system that
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, but you, you, you know, I think you, you, you said the magic word, which is just culture, right? And there, there's obviously the culture of, you know, London and the UK itself. But then just the culture of dance music that exists there. And I think that it's interesting'cause the culture is different in America, right? And I think especially for a lot of artists that are kind of pursuing the path, you know, I see a lot of people that it's like they. They wanna be DJs and they want to tour and they wanna like live this sort of lifestyle. But it's like there's kind of this gap between actually being about the culture, you know what I mean? Where like you, like you eat, breathe and live this shit where it's like, I would do this. Regardless, just'cause I fucking love it. And it's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to raves until I'm 90 years old and, you know, like I, I really, really fuck with this. And a lot of people I, I see are kinda like, uh, I'm gonna try this until I'm 30. And then if it doesn't work out, like I'm gonna go get a job at the bank. You know? And, and there's a little bit of,
Josh:here do it. Just because they want to do it
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:think two ways about being
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, bro.
Josh:dreams be like, oh, I'm, I couture off this. Mainly because you can't do that here. I mean like there, it's such a small island and like there's such a small selection of people who make it here that like most people do it just because they absolutely love it and that really contributes to the culture and it's usually those guys who are just at home in their bedroom. That suddenly blow up out of nowhere and
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:And they a lot of the time have no idea how to handle it.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, dude and, and.
Josh:in America you do have people that are like, this is popular, I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it similar to other people and I know it works. And
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:to get an agent and I'll be able to tour.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, yeah, yeah. There, there, there is a formula, there's a template, there's an economy and an industry around it. Like it is part of, like, we do also have just the bigger music industry out here in general. Like LA is a beast of, you know, the entertainment capital of the world. And there's a lot of institutions that are there that can support artists in being successful. Um, but yeah, man, I think though, it's like, especially with dance music though, it's like, you know, I, I come from fucking, you know, like. Proper, like raving and like before it was big and caught it at this interesting era before it all really, really blew up. And I think there's so many people that, um, yeah, just never really got to experience the deeper sort of roots of dance, music, culture. You know? If you're just getting into it, you know, now, or in the last however many years, it's kind of like you're kind of getting this like watered down version of it. Unless you're getting into like the real underground shit, you know, which I, I think,
Josh:just corporatized, isn't it?
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:uh, there are big businesses that own, like all of the festivals,
Nik Cherwink:totally.
Josh:are now like becoming one. So now you just have like two giant agencies that control everything. And
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:very, it's, it's a very American thing, right? It's
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:It's, it's full like. A big pyramid of some guys at the top.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:so much opportunity, man. You have all of the, the mass amount of land, so many shows happening and there is huge opportunity for someone to make a living off doing it, especially now with TikTok and internet culture being what it is. All you need is to grind content out and, and
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:America real
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. And, and, and, and I don't wanna knock it, you know, I think that it's like, it, it's, it's cool to see the evolution of it, you know, like, I'm never one to be like, oh, it should stay underground. You know what I mean? It's like, no, it's, it's fucking awesome. And it's, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's incredible what it has become. I just think that it is important for artists to be, you know. Really tapped into, um, there's this like deeper energy and ethos that dance music really provides. And, and I think it's important to be tapped into that and not just tapped into like, TikTok and not just tapped into like the big, you know, major festivals, but like the real, the real, yeah. Culture underneath it. So
Josh:and I, I've actually noticed that, like, I feel like it reached a breaking point. I, I, maybe it's just dubstep, but like, it felt like it got to a point where it could only get smaller'cause it just got so big
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:now you're seeing like more underground artists breaking through. and it's a real underground sound, so that's, it's dope. It's,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:almost like you build something up to be as big as it can possibly be, and then like people just get bored of how big it is, and then they want to go back to the underground
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:that happen in America. And dude, when we first taught America, like there was no EDM, I mean,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:was like trance music,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, yeah.
Josh:That was it.
Nik Cherwink:Yep.
Josh:that, like we over here, we didn't consider dubstep or drummer bass to be like EDM in any way. It was
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:urban alternative music. It was not a, it was not a dance music genre like
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:was, um, a vinyl culture. It was like more like, uh, a reggae sound system culture
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:EDM
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:when I first did my first American tour there was no people wearing bright colors or candy or any of this stuff. It didn't exist yet.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:did, but like in hardcore raves underground,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:I was playing shows for the first few years, it was just regular people wearing regular clothes,
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:shows, and they might see us and they might see a, a, a rock band afterwards. You know? It's like
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:this like, cultural phenomenon.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah. Well that's what I love what you're doing. And I, and I really love hearing that even though it, it is, uh, you know, technically a solo project, now that you're still bringing the band out with you, you're still bringing other members and, and really bringing that live element in that live show, because in, in my opinion, man, I just, I think that that's the future. I would love for that to be the future. I, I really. Hope that, guys like you are paving the way and inspiring other people to see what's possible. You know, for me it was, it kind of clicked in my head like I'm, I'm a huge pendulum fan as well. I'm like, oh, that's just so fucking cool what they do. And coming from a, a band background myself, it was when I saw a line, here in Austin where when he did his full production, it was him and like. Eight other fucking musicians on the stage. He had guitars and drums and singers. And I'm like, oh shit. I'm like, that's what I want to see. I'm like, that is the future. And that's like, I, I think just the, the hybrid electronic band space is really cool. And it's just innovative, you know? So it's, it's just, it's cool to see that you are, um, yeah. You're still like kinda really paving the path for that.'cause it's still, it's not really, not really happening yet. You know, there's really not a lot of people that are doing it.
Josh:And I see why like doing it myself, it's crazy expensive
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:it's like I under, I understand because obviously I've done the DJ thing for so long. I can show up with a USB key
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:a backpack.
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:good to go
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:When we do it with a live show, man, we gotta have crew. We gotta have front of house engineer, visual guy. Everyone's gotta get paid. Their, their wages then visas and up being very expensive. So I do understand why other people may not want to take that risk. Um, but you do it'cause you love it and that's, that's really there's no feeling. Like this weekend we played, uh, in Poland and it was entirely just a rock festival.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:else was like. Straw rock. And then
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:stage and everyone's like, what is this? And it took like solid 15 minutes to get people on our side. And by the end of it,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:Biggest mosh pits of the day. Biggest crowd interaction of the day. for me, like I wanna be a front man,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:Freddie Mercury and I'm like, that is what I want to do. I
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:like give people an experience they've never had before. And I'm not to, I'm not like knocking DJs at all, and I'm sure there are DJs that can do that. But for me growing up, that's what I experienced when I saw Michael Jackson play Live, Stevie Wonder Play Live and, and. Got this feeling of like hearing all these instruments, playing my favorite songs and just slightly different from the record. And
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:it just gives me goosebumps, man. That's
Nik Cherwink:Dude, that's what's up, man. It's funny, I I I, I've been around this scene for a long, long time, you know? 15 years as well, at least. And I had this realization the other day. I saw this YouTube video pop up and it was, uh, it was Skrillex and Jamie xx doing like a back to back at like some, yeah, it was like some, it was kinda like a side stage or something at some festival. I don't know exactly. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So what, but, but what I noticed in the video was all these people are like, you know, so excited and, and, and watching, you know, them come out and watching them start DJing, but it, it was like the middle of the day. There were no visuals or like pyro or any crazy shit happening. And I just kind of realized, I'm like, what are they actually watching? You know? Like everyone was like standing there watching them and I'm like, you just watch them press a button and fucking do nothing for like, for the next like two minutes until they mix in the next song. They're not actually doing anything. And, and, and, and it clicked for the first time. I'm like, watching DJs is actually really fucking boring. That's why we have all this pyro. Like, unless you're like James hype and you're doing some crazy shit, you know? So it, it, for the first time it just clicked to me. I'm like, oh, it's actually without all the like production, it's actually really boring, you know? So,
Josh:I mean, that's why the production's there, I guess. But yeah, it was cool. They, they played at the front of house, so everyone thought the music was coming out and everyone was looking at the stage, but
Nik Cherwink:that's what it was. Yeah.
Josh:doing it. I mean, it's a cool idea, but yeah, you're right. It's like without all the extra lights and the,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:guess it's a statement in, it's like you have to. getting the music.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:the raw music.
Nik Cherwink:yeah, yeah. For,
Josh:it's a cool statement, but I do agree, man,
Nik Cherwink:yeah. And.
Josh:the production is.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. And it's like, you know, it was Skrillex, so it's, he's like such a celebrity, you know, like, oh my god. You know, like, well, Skrill is there, but also it's like not a lot of people were really dancing either. And I'm like, back to sort of like the culture, you know? It's like, yo, like this is dance music. We should be dancing, not just like staring at the guy, pressing the buttons, you know? But, but that's why the band, the band world is different. It's fucking cool when you're up on stage and you're, you know, you're really bringing some energy to the audience in a whole different way. Yeah.
Josh:It's my favorite thing ever, but looking around at, at my drummer and watching him shred
Nik Cherwink:It.
Josh:it, and then over to my guitarist and he fucking shreds a solo. I'm just like.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah.
Josh:I don't know exactly what they're gonna do when they're gonna do it, and they might do a different fill here or a different solo here, or a bassist is, man, all of it. It's exciting to be on stage and then. To be a front man as well and be able to command a crowd. And like when I'm DJing, I do that as well, man. Like I bring that, that like front man energy to DJing, but then I'm also thinking about the next mix I'm doing
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:I, am I gonna, yeah, fuck up the next mix. But just having no other thoughts other than just like me, microphone, crowd,
Nik Cherwink:yeah, yeah.
Josh:go through a journey together. Let's,
Nik Cherwink:It's different. It's different, man. I think it's like, there's more of the human to human connection. You know, it's almost more of a spiritual experience. It's like my, my spirit is being activated as a live musician. Your spirit is being activated in the crowd as opposed to, you know, when I'm just playing a song that's been digitally recorded. You know, it's like, it's gonna make you shake your ass. But yeah, that kind of like, Live performance front man connection is just, uh, it's, it's just different, you know? So it's, uh, yeah. I don't know if you saw, there was this coolest fucking clip, floating around on Instagram recently where it was system of a down playing in Brazil and it's like an aerial shot. And there literally is like. There's like five bonfires, like in the crowd. It's like the crowd is like on fire and it's like, it looks like it's gotta be like a hundred thousand people or something
Josh:Yeah, I
Nik Cherwink:and,
Josh:a million people.
Nik Cherwink:a no. Yeah. A million people. Like, it was, it was insane. Right. And then to see it's like, that's just four dudes in front commanding that level of energy. And I'm like, yo, I, I fucking love EDMI love raving, but there's something different about a band. You know, like you just don't see that shit.
Josh:And there's a code of honor as well. I feel like when I go to rock shows, everybody knows what's up. Like
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:isn't new to them.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah, yeah,
Josh:and like. to festivals isn't new to, to people who have been listening to rock music their whole life. So there's like this code of honor and different vibe about one's there for show. Everyone is truly there for the music.
Nik Cherwink:yeah.
Josh:that, that's one thing I do love about the rock experience and we've been lucky enough as a banter predominantly do rock festivals here in Europe.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:um. It's, it's, it's a big contrast from that to going to Ultra. And again, no, not knocking the Ultra in any way, but like you get people who are there because they want photos of themself or they want their costume to look cool, which is great. Like it's,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:knocking it at all, but
Nik Cherwink:It's just different.
Josh:so different.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and kudos to you to be able to exist in both of those worlds. I think that's the coolest fucking thing as an artist where it's like, yo, I'm not pigeonholed to just being and existing in this one box. You know? And, and it's like, it's cool to see, you know, you see artists like, I don't know, like, uh. Obviously, you know, Diplo's a very great example of that as a dj where he's like, yo, I can pop in here. I can pop in there. Like, everybody kind of accepts me. Or, or you know, even, I don't know, like Post Malone or something, or like Jelly Roll. I see Jelly Roll is like, he was just on like falling in Reverses album, you know, he's like collabing with a metal band. Yeah. He is collabing with a metal band and then he's obviously country. He's doing pop. It's like that's, that's just a sign I think of a really. A true artist, you know? And so really like shout out to you for being able to be like, we can live in both of these worlds and we don't have to like put ourselves in a box like that. Yeah.
Josh:man. Definitely trying and yeah, I appreciate, I appreciate the, uh, the compliments,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:we are just lucky as well that that's another thing we came through in a time and place where it was like. A lot easier to make it. And, and there was a, it was an emerging genre and like we were just one of the few who just were making it at that time.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:um,
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:privileged to be like pre TikTok,
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:pre Spotify.
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:So, yeah, like all of those, all those plays on our Spotify has, since Spotify has existed. Uh, when our first album came out, there was no Spotify, man.
Nik Cherwink:yeah,
Josh:just download your songs onto your iPod.
Nik Cherwink:for sure. Yeah. Well. And,
Josh:right now.
Nik Cherwink:and, and I've heard, I've heard quite a few artists bring that up recently as well, where it's like people that have been in the game for, you know, over 10 years, it's like, man, it looks so different 10 years ago. And it was a different era. Marketing and promotion and just get, you know, just having. Success and people discovering you. It, it looked completely different back then. what advice do you have for artists that are trying to break into the game now in 2025?
Josh:I would say don't be fooled by how easy it is to become popular on TikTok and Instagram by. Playing to the tropes of what the algorithm wants. Like use that to your advantage for sure, but it's not gonna sell you tickets. I think there's like this massive, um, expectation from people who blow up on TikTok or blow up on Instagram that, that it's gonna translate to tickets. And I think for last few years a lot of promoters believed it as well and they were taking big risks and. Forking out a lot of money on Acts who blew up on TikTok and had no history selling any tickets
Nik Cherwink:Hmm.
Josh:and the show's tanking
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:I don't believe the same people who like stuff on TikTok are the same people who buy tickets and go out to shows.
Nik Cherwink:Hmm.
Josh:I would say use it as a marketing tool. It's there and. You can use those tropes to get your fan base in, but it's really important to stay true to the music, um, and to start small and make sure you show and prove your worth selling tickets on a smaller level before you jump into the deep end. And. Basically ruin your career before it's over.'cause if you start doing shows that are too big for your act, because you believe from your numbers online that you will sell those tickets, if you don't sell them out, you are not gonna get booked again from those promoters. So start small and sell the fuck out of tiny venues. Prove that you can do that. And also. When you are in those venues, get every person's email. Own your data. Because when you are getting these likes on Instagram, you're getting these likes on TikTok. You don't own any of that information. So as much information you can siphon off those platforms, email lists, phone numbers, uh, where people live, all of that stuff is gold. It's worth way more to you than any of your. Likes or reposts, or retweets, all of that stuff does not earn you a fan base that will stick with you. So having that data and being able to email someone whenever you want, be able to text them whenever you want, that is a real key ingredient to being able to sell out venues and maintain a long career.
Nik Cherwink:Mm man. Really, really, really good advice. Thank you so much for that. I'm glad that you bring up the email list thing'cause that's come up a few times for me as well. Recently, people asking like, oh, should I start an email list? Should I focus on that? So it's great to hear like, yes, that is info that you own. We saw. MySpace disappear overnight. Vine disappear overnight. Who know? You know, it, it's possible that, you know, Facebook and Meta can, could disappear overnight and we don't own any of that information.
Josh:even if they don't disappear, for example, we have 700,000 followers on Facebook.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:in order for me to now reach those followers, I have to pay$10,000 a post.
Nik Cherwink:yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josh:as well not be reached. I may as well not have them. They're
Nik Cherwink:Totally.
Josh:me now,
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:post reach is like 5,000 of them, 10,000.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. That's crazy.
Josh:limited, but back in the day when we first started and I was siphoning everyone onto that platform because I believe that was the next big thing. Before there was algorithms, every post I posted went out to everyone.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah,
Josh:I was getting, you know, 10,000 likes on a
Nik Cherwink:yeah, yeah.
Josh:penny. And then Facebook realized, oh, let's just charge people for
Nik Cherwink:Totally. Totally. Yeah.
Josh:um, it's ruined the platform.
Nik Cherwink:Totally. And so when it comes to an email list, what would I send out as an artist? What should I be sending out? What, what kind of stuff do you send out to your email list as you start to develop it?
Josh:So, uh, if you have your email list, you should, alongside that also have where that person is and potentially a phone number. So if you're playing a show in that area, you can email them directly, people. Respond to emails. Not respond, but they, people read emails and stuff that's in their inbox way more. They give it way more attention than any notification or anything they can scroll
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:scroll past an email.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah.
Josh:So it's just notifying people of your releases, anything that's going on, any kind of update you wanna give people. They're gonna read it more on an email because it's not bundled in with a hundred thousand other interactions that day.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that, that's great advice. I think such, such an overlooked and important piece of an artist's career. Like you're, you're actually probably one of the first artists that I've heard that's really talked about the importance of the email list. So I I, I really appreciate that and, and definitely everybody, yeah. Take notes. Um, I actually, I have.
Josh:numbers as well, ma'am.
Nik Cherwink:Yeah. Yeah. I, I have a, I have an episode out with, uh, this woman, Cheryl, if you look up Cheryl, S-E-C-H-E-R-Y-L, Cheryl Engle, Inglehart, I believe is her last name. We have a whole episode about email list where she really dug deep into that. So you guys could check out that episode if you wanna learn a little bit more about it. But, um, yeah, really, really great advice on there. Uh, now you are. In the middle of a tour, you, you did your first couple dates for the tour supporting the album. What's that looking like right now?
Josh:We haven't started the album tour yet. We were just doing like festival season.
Nik Cherwink:Mm-hmm.
Josh:of coming towards the end of festival season. I've got about three or four more shows, and then we're gonna be announcing in the next couple weeks. Like proper tour for this album where I think it's so far Europe, a little bit of Asia and the
Nik Cherwink:Nice. Amazing. Uh, that's so cool, man. Are you, do you know if you're coming to Austin, Texas by any chance?'cause
Josh:coming to
Nik Cherwink:let's. Fuck. Yeah. I am coming out for sure. I am. I'm so excited to see what you're doing. Hell yeah. Will you guys keep an eye out for the album dropping? Definitely keep an eye out for the tour dates. You know, we've all seen the DJs, we've seen'em do it, we've seen'em press those buttons and some cool visuals. But if you wanna see a fucking real live show, you know where to go. Mode step is going on tour. So, dude, I can't wait to, uh, yeah, to come out and see what you're doing, brother. And honestly, thank you so much for this conversation today. You know, as I said, I started off. The day and feeling a little, a little funky, feeling in a little, in a little bit of a rut. But, um, just getting to talk to you and have this conversation has completely flipped my mood around. So I really appreciate you, uh, yeah. Taking the time and just, just bringing the energy today, man.
Josh:I'm glad to, glad to hear you're feeling better and thank you so much for having me, man. It's been great.
